Path: utzoo!hoptoad!ihnp4!gargoyle!oddjob!pooh
From: pooh@oddjob.UChicago.EDU (soggy and hard to light)
Newsgroups: alt.flame
Subject: Re: Re: Religion, Christmas parties, etc
Message-ID: <14197@oddjob.UChicago.EDU>
Date: 4 Jan 88 02:28:43 GMT
References: <14173@oddjob.UChicago.EDU> <7500002@hpcllak.HP.COM>
Reply-To: pooh@oddjob.uchicago.edu.UUCP (soggy and hard to light)
Organization: The Wild, Chunky, Spunky Planet of Mary Lou Retton Clones
Lines: 81

In article <7500002@hpcllak.HP.COM> norma@hpcllak.HP.COM (Norma Pincus) writes:
>Yo, Pooh, what about me?  I'm not religious, and neither are my family
>or most of my friends. 

That's nice for you.  Do you deny that you got your customs from
a religion that a lot of us don't share?  Whether YOU attach
any religious significance to them is immaterial.

>Let me repeat to make it clear:  Christmas is _NOT_ a religious holidal
>to me.  And I resent you dogmatically foisting your view as if it was an
>incontrovertable fact.

I have never said how you should look at it at home.  But *I*
resent you taking a tradition that I and my people do not share
and claiming that it's a universal one.

>No matter what you or the majority thinks, those "Christian icons" are
>no more religious to me than a STOP sign.  And I most strenuously object
>to anyone trying to tell me that I'm being religiously intolerant for
>puting up a STOP sign.

You're welcome to put up STOP signs in your own spaces and attach
whatever meaning to them you want.  Just don't forget who originally
used them and who STILL use them for religious purposes.

>You, Pooh, suffer from the height of hypocrisy by guising your own
>intolerance in a plea for tolerance.  You, as well as most of the other
>principals in this "debate", can't seem to grasp the distinction between
>your own perceptions/opinions and some sort of objective reality.

Oh, so YOUR opinion is an objective reality???  DO tell.

>You are offended by displays of "religious trappings" because you see
>them that way, not because they _are_ that (I repeat:  I see nothing
> _at all_ religious in Christmas trees, candy canes, Santa Claus, or 
>any of the other Christmas icons).

Are you denying that the traditions were originally Christian
and are STILL seen as Christian by a large number of religious
Christians?  GET REAL.  You yourself keep calling them Christmas
icons.  Just because YOU don't think they're religious doesn't mean
that they're not.  Those of us who have never had them in our tradition 
know them to be the property of another group, which are generally
called Christians.  To say that this group is instead "everyone
else on the planet who is NORMAL" is the height of blindness and
arrogance.

>Whatever happened to live and let live?  My Christmas tree doesn't
>interfere with your rights or your enjoyment or celebration of Hanukkah.
>I don't care if you put up your icons in the office or at the "holiday
>party", why do you object to my putting up my (remember, to me they are
> _not religious_) icons?

Because they originated in a religion and are still practiced
by a religion.  Unfortunately, it has become so advertised and
spread among apathetic or nonreligious people that some want to
make it a law of society.  Once law, how long do you think it
would be before MY religion were then OUTLAWED because it was
not "in the mainstream"?

No, thank you.  I will keep my religion to myself, and I want
you to do the same.  Even though you do not feel that your
icons are religious, you are spreading them for a religion
that would like to take over ALL public places.  Why do you
HAVE to put them in common areas?  Do you insist that your
company take the day off on your birthday?  Do you insist that
everyone in your city celebrate the fact that your swimming
team won the championship?

>I have to emphasize what has already been said:  How can you, out of one
>side of your mouth chastise people for not wanting to change the stupid
>name of the party, while out of the other side, you yourself make such
>a big deal out of the stupid name?

Because it's NOT MY GODDAMN RELIGION.  UNDERSTAND?  
I don't want MY customs there, I don't want YOUR customs there.
They are not appropriate for public and I want them OUT.


Pooh
       pooh@oddjob.uchicago.edu