Xref: utzoo talk.religion.misc:3961 alt.flame:1149
Path: utzoo!hoptoad!amdahl!ames!hao!oddjob!pooh
From: pooh@oddjob.UChicago.EDU (soggy and hard to light)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,alt.flame
Subject: Re: Xmas Celebs
Message-ID: <14196@oddjob.UChicago.EDU>
Date: 4 Jan 88 02:03:31 GMT
References: <2120@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> <10024@mimsy.UUCP>
Reply-To: pooh@oddjob.uchicago.edu.UUCP (soggy and hard to light)
Distribution: usa
Organization: The Wild, Chunky, Spunky Planet of Mary Lou Retton Clones
Lines: 79

In article <10024@mimsy.UUCP> mangoe@mimsy.UUCP (George Orr) writes:

[Charley moans and wails about how misunderstood he is.]
>
>Here we have the apotheosis of modern argument.  It is not sufficient for me
>to be accused of wrong thinking and having my facts wrong; no, I must also
>be convicted of narrow-mindedness. 

Charley, you DO think wrong, have your facts wrong, and are narrow-minded.

>There is no such right, either in law or anywhere else.  The law recognizes
>religious freedom; 

It also guarantees freedom FROM religion, Charley.  It guarantees that
you may celebrate whatever you want in your church and in your home;
it also guarantees that I may go about in public spaces without being
imposed on by your religious practice.

>Not at all. It's easy enough to see here that Christianity is under attack
>for demanding a larger place in life than "nice" religion ought to claim.
>Christianity is simply too rambunctious and cannot keep its nose out of the
>affairs of others.  The fact of this "obviousness" is simply shared
>perspective-- a rather majoritarian perspective too, I might add.

Yep.  It means that Christianity should be kept to its practitioners,
just as most other religions keep to THEMSELVES.  The problem is, Charley,
people like you can't be satisfied with celebrating Xmas however you
want to, on your own desk, in your home, in your yard, in a hall rented
with your own money with like-minded people.  You insist that everyone
else celebrate it too, so much so that you begin to see it as shared
by people who aren't even Christian.  Calling it secular as well as
religious gives you a pretext for imposing it on the a-theistic
as well as those of other religions.

>It's interesting how several people have said "I'm Jewish, and I don't
>celebrate Christmas", with the implication that this means something.  What
>it means is that, in retaining their Jewishness they choose to be out of
>the mainstream to this extent.  

So what you're saying is that if you're Jewish, you're not normal.
CAN YOU BELIEVE THE INCREDIBLE ARROGANCE OF THIS GUY???

>Why they, as Jews (and I note that our
>jewish neighbors celebrate christmas), have a veto over the holiday
>celebrations of everyone else is something which has yet to be adequately
>justified.

Because most of us Jews, Charley, keep our holidays to ourselves.
We go home at 5.00 and have parties at home, invite friends over
who WANT to share our celebration with us.  We go to our own place
of worship.  

AND WE ARE DEMANDING THAT YOU DO THE SAME.  

Get out of OUR space and into your own.  Once you're there, you
can celebrate whatever you damn well like.  ANYONE can celebrate
however much or little of Christmas as they like and call it
Winter Solstice.  But they may NOT assume that it is celebrated
by everyone; that anyone who doesn't is "out of the mainstream";
they may NOT take over the places where I have to work, shop,
and conduct business.

All I can say, Charley, is that I am very thankful that your
dreams DON'T come to pass.  I have never suggested that anyone
should practice the customs that I learned; you would have yours
so established that anyone who didn't want a part of them would
be abnormal.

You think that if you can't celebrate your holiday in MY space,
in the space that everyone must share, that you're not being allowed
to celebrate it at all.  Grow up, Charley, and learn that you
can't always have your way.

Pooh
      pooh@oddjob.uchicago.edu

Caesar:  Forgive him, Theodotus:  he is a barbarian, and thinks
that the customs of his tribe and island are the law of nature.
        -- George Bernard Shaw