Xref: utzoo talk.religion.misc:4015 alt.flame:1159
Path: utzoo!hoptoad!amdcad!amdahl!ames!ll-xn!husc6!bloom-beacon!athena.mit.edu!jik
From: jik@athena.mit.edu (Jonathan Isaiah Kamens)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,alt.flame
Subject: Re: Xmas Celebs
Message-ID: <2137@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU>
Date: 5 Jan 88 00:49:56 GMT
References: <2120@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> <10024@mimsy.UUCP> <14196@oddjob.UChicago.EDU>
Sender: daemon@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU
Reply-To: jik@athena.mit.edu (Jonathan Isaiah Kamens)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Lines: 89
Cc: jik@athena.mit.edu

My mind is getting quite befuddled with all of the arguments and
cross-arguments and flames and cross-flames and points and
counter-points.  I am therefore going to attempt to state my opinion
in this matter in a way that will logically explain what I want to say
while not flaming at anybody.  It's tough, but I just might be able to
manage it if I struggle with all my strength.

_1_. _I_s _C_h_r_i_s_t_m_a_s _a _C_h_r_i_s_t_i_a_n _a_n_d _a _R_e_l_i_g_i_o_u_s _h_o_l_i_d_a_y_?

This, I think, is at the crux of this entire argument.  My opinion, as
I have already stated, is that Christmas is a religious holiday.  I
will concede that the majority of Christians in the world today
practice it in a mostly secular way.  However, I will not concede that
because most Christians treat it as secular, it therefore is secular.
Analogy: cruise on over to rec.puzzles, where a puzzle about three
boxes was recently posted.  In the original wash of answers, a
considerable majority of people said that the correct answer is 1/2.
In fact, the correct answer is 2/3.  The correct answer does not
become 1/2 just because more people said it is.  I submit that people
who treat Christmas as a secular holiday are WRONG.  Christmas, by its
nature of the celebration of the birth of Christ, is a religious
holiday.  If you say that Christians have a right to decide whether or
not to treat Christmas religiously, then I submit that Jews and other
non-Christians have a right to decide whether they wish to consider
Christmas religious, and therefore whether or not they are offended by
public displays of its observance.

In the same way, even if most Christians do not consider a creche a
religious symbol (and in fact I think that if pressed most Christians
will would state that the creche is, indeed, religious), Jews have a
right to decide whether or not they consider it religious and
offensive to their religious beliefs.  If they do, then they have the
right not to be subjected to viewing it, or to seeing their government
support it openly through public displays.

If you strongly disagree with the conclusion that Christmas is a
religious holiday, then we will debate forever and we will never
convince each other of anything.  So, why argue?

_2_. _I_s _t_h_e _f_r_e_e_d_o_m _F_R_O_M _r_e_l_i_g_i_o_n _p_r_o_t_e_c_t_e_d _i_n _a_d_d_i_t_i_o_n _t_o _t_h_e _f_r_e_e_d_o_m
_O_F _r_e_l_i_g_i_o_n_?

Certain people around here seem to like seeing legal citations in
posts, and I will therefore base my answer to this on a legal
citation.  I take you down to the southeastern United States, where a
district court judge recently ruled that "secular humanism" is a
religion.  According to him, and he stated this explicitly in his
opinion, the desire NOT to practice a religion is, in and of itself,
religious.  Therefore, atheists, who are such secular humanists, are
in fact practicing a religion.  They are therefore protected from
participating in religious activities of other religions.  They have a
right, under the freedom of their religion, to be able to be free of
religion in public areas.

Alternate answer: It is, in fact, AGAINST many people's religion to
participate in the singing of Christmas carols whose words are
religious, even if every Christian singing considers the songs to be
secular.  It is, in fact, AGAINST many people's religion to view a
creche, even if others refuse to recognize the religious intent of the
symbol.  This is not a question of tolerance, this is a question of
your violating my religious freedom by forcing me to do something that
I cannot do, and by forcing me to recognize the validity of something
which I do not consider valid.

_3_. _W_h_a_t_'_s _t_h_e _p_o_i_n_t_?

I would not protest to the display of Christmas trees or Santa Claus
on public property, although they make me uncomfortable, because they
are not, in essense, religious in nature.  I will, however, protest
the display of a creche, which is religious in nature.

I would not protest to a party being called a "Christmas Party," as
long as it stays secular in everything but the name.

I will protest when someone tries to convince me that Christmas is not
a religious holiday, or that the creche is not a religious symbol,
simply because "most Christians" do not view them as such.  Here, I
think, we have the Christian majority forcing their opinions on the
observing Christian minority and on non-Christians.

		      *************************

If you are just going to refute all of these points, then post to
/dev/null, OK?  It's enough already.... we disagree, and it's clear (I
think) that no one's mind is going to be changed!

 -=> Jonathan I. Kamens | "There is no expedient to which man will not go
     MIT '91            |  to avoid the real labor of thought."
     jik@ATHENA.MIT.EDU |                          -- Thomas Alva Edison