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From: jst1@sphinx.uchicago.edu (John Tomas)
Newsgroups: soc.singles,talk.religion.misc,alt.flame
Subject: Re: Christmas parties
Message-ID: <3019@sphinx.uchicago.edu>
Date: 5 Jan 88 20:42:40 GMT
References: <8712231623.AA24882@decwrl.dec.com> <1340@vaxwaller.UUCP> <14173@oddjob.UChicago.EDU> <207@sp7040.UUCP> <1393@uoregon.UUCP> <14200@oddjob.UChicago.EDU>
Reply-To: jst1@sphinx.uchicago.edu.UUCP (John Tomas)
Organization: U. Chicago Computation Center
Lines: 47

Organization: U Chicago Computation Center

In article <14200@oddjob.UChicago.EDU> matt@oddjob.UChicago.EDU (D 1 4 U 2 C) writes:
>In article <1393@uoregon.UUCP> markv@drizzle.UUCP (Mark VandeWettering) writes:
>) 	How incredibly poor in FAITH is a man who will only believe what
>) 	is SHOWN to him, what is EXPLAINED to him, what cannot be
>) 	denied.  If one adopts a religion, one is forced to accept the
>) 	fact that there are things which cannot be explained or proved.
>) 	It makes for a much simpler lifestyle, and for some, one that is
>) 	potentially more rich.
>
>Way to go, Mark.  Spoken like a true neo-conservative.  Accept
>authority, don't ask questions, and wear ignorance like a badge!
>
>(Oh, and please don't just write back to say how liberal you think
>you are.  Anyone who can voluntarily and so thoroughly shut off the
>brain that he believes his creator gave him should not engage in
>arguments.)

I find your summary of Mark's comments lacking in intellectual subtlety.  The
distinction he is drawing is between faith and reason.  To summarize centuries
of commentary quickly.  Even if you believe that it is possible to reason to 
the existence of God, there are still matters of orthodox Catholic thought, for
example, as Aquinas pointed out, which cannot be reasoned to -- Mary's 
immaculate conception, or the doctrine of the Trinity.  Believing such things
has nothing to do with the intellect; belief is a matter of will.  To believe 
such things does not suggest that you are turning your mind off.  It simply
suggests that you appreciate that you are not the ultimate end of existence and
that you are accepting the fact that things are which you cannot fully 
understand.

Personally, I am unmoved by Aquinas' proofs for the existence of God, and I 
believe (bad word -- Latin was much better for such discussions) that belief in
God cannot be demonstrated -- that it is also *solely* a matter of faith.  I
personally don't have such faith, but I have to say that the fact that I cannot
reason to God's existence, or demonstrate it in a rigorous way makes the act of
will of those who still believe all the more powerful.  Mark's distinction was
one which Kierkegaard made -- what degree of faith does it take to say that 
the sun will rise in the East every morning?  Belief in a god whose existence
cannot be proved, or for that matter in another human being who may choose to 
leave at any instant is a *true* act of faith (love).

As I said, I don't believe myself, but I don't dismiss those who do as 
fools, nor do I demean a long and powerful intellectual tradition.

John Tomas
U Chicago Computation Center