Xref: utzoo soc.singles:12663 talk.religion.misc:4056 alt.flame:1201
Path: utzoo!hoptoad!amdcad!pyramid!hplabs!hp-pcd!uoregon!markv
From: markv@uoregon.UUCP (Mark VandeWettering)
Newsgroups: soc.singles,talk.religion.misc,alt.flame
Subject: Re: Christmas parties
Message-ID: <1406@uoregon.UUCP>
Date: 7 Jan 88 19:35:13 GMT
References: <8712231623.AA24882@decwrl.dec.com> <1340@vaxwaller.UUCP> <14173@oddjob.UChicago.EDU> <207@sp7040.UUCP> <1393@uoregon.UUCP> <14200@oddjob.UChicago.EDU> <3019@sphinx.uchicago.edu>
Reply-To: markv@drizzle.UUCP (Mark VandeWettering)
Organization: University of Oregon, Computer Science, Eugene OR
Lines: 64

In article <3019@sphinx.uchicago.edu> jst1@sphinx.uchicago.edu.UUCP (John Tomas) writes:
>In article <14200@oddjob.UChicago.EDU> matt@oddjob.UChicago.EDU (D 1 4 U 2 C) writes:
>>(Oh, and please don't just write back to say how liberal you think
>>you are.  Anyone who can voluntarily and so thoroughly shut off the
>>brain that he believes his creator gave him should not engage in
>>arguments.)

	I don't have to write back about how liberal I am.  I think that
	the terms liberal and conservative have been bandied about too
	much, to the point that they don't really mean anything.
	As to your comment about my voluntarilly turning off my brain,
	that is precisely the point.  My intellect recognizes the
	futility of trying to prove the existence of a god.  If god is
	indeed the omniscient being, how could I possibly understand
	god?  Recognize him/her?  (hah! avoiding feminist flames ;-)

	Your attitude is precisely the kind of intolerance which baffles
	me.  The addage "a closed mind is an empty mind" leaps to mind
	here.  My mind is not closed, I ponder the great mystery's of
	life quite often (where am I going? how long have I got? is
	there a god?  do giraffes sneeze?)  My religious faith is
	relatively small, precisely because of my dedication to reason
	and intellectual pursuit.  But I do recognize certain things
	being beyond the capability of intellect to determine.

		(See Hilbert's Theorem :-)

>Personally, I am unmoved by Aquinas' proofs for the existence of God, and I 
>believe (bad word -- Latin was much better for such discussions) that belief in
>God cannot be demonstrated -- that it is also *solely* a matter of faith.  

	Agreed. 

>I
>personally don't have such faith, but I have to say that the fact that I cannot
>reason to God's existence, or demonstrate it in a rigorous way makes the act of
>will of those who still believe all the more powerful.  Mark's distinction was
>one which Kierkegaard made -- what degree of faith does it take to say that 
>the sun will rise in the East every morning?  Belief in a god whose existence
>cannot be proved, or for that matter in another human being who may choose to 
>leave at any instant is a *true* act of faith (love).

	Faith is an absolutely amazing thing, analogous to Real (tm)
	Love.  Everytime I see an example of true faith, as well as true
	love, I am amazed by the fact that people can achieve such
	miraculous things.  I don't understand it, I have never felt
	like I had either of the two, but I at least have a limited
	ability to recognize it when I see it.

	Faith is not a turning off of mind, it is not fantasy.  Part of
	my personal declaration of faith is that I try to "understand"
	and learn more about my faith.  But learning isn't always an
	emotional process...  But then it seems, I have some detractors
	:-)

>As I said, I don't believe myself, but I don't dismiss those who do as 
>fools, nor do I demean a long and powerful intellectual tradition.

Thanks John, couldn't have said it better....

>John Tomas
>U Chicago Computation Center

mark vandewettering, can god be recognized by a turing machine?