Path: utzoo!hoptoad!amdcad!decwrl!ucbvax!jade!ig!uwmcsd1!csd4.milw.wisc.edu!markh
From: markh@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Mark William Hopkins)
Newsgroups: alt.flame
Subject: Re: Theological Debates
Summary: Comma Syntax
Keywords: Comma
Message-ID: <4136@uwmcsd1.UUCP>
Date: 11 Jan 88 03:11:57 GMT
References: <4062@uwmcsd1.UUCP> <514@gethen.UUCP> <4080@uwmcsd1.UUCP> <22421@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> <4107@uwmcsd1.UUCP> <550@gethen.UUCP>
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Reply-To: markh@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Mark William Hopkins)
Distribution: alt.flame
Organization: University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee
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In article <550@gethen.UUCP> farren@gethen.UUCP (Michael J. Farren) writes:
>markh@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Mark William Hopkins) writes:
>>robinson@dewey.soe.berkeley.edu (Michael Robinson) writes:
>>>> markh@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Mark William Hopkins) writes:
>>>>>>     Maybe, I ought to clarify myself, as there seem to be those who
>>>>            ^
>>>>       This is correct usage, given my intentions.  A comma denotes a
>>>>pause, it was a pause that was intended here. 
>>>
>>>Wrong, again, Mister Remedial.  Is that what they're teaching you at
>>      ^
>>>A pause, when it is a semantic entity unto itself, is represented by an
>>>ellipsis.
>>...or by a comma, period, colon or semi-colon.  
>
>Wrong.  Commas separate clauses, mostly.  Periods end sentences.  Colons
>and semicolons are used to separate clauses differently than commas.  The
>point is that, although the spoken word represents all of those as pauses
>of varying duration, their purpose, when used in the written word, is not
>as simplistic as simply indicating a pause. 

Maybe... just maybe, I am completely off.  I always thought commas did the
following things:
   separate conjoined clauses whenever it is natural to make a short pause there
   (i.e. sepatate conjoined clauses that are long);
   for listings (such as this one),
	 including listings such as 
          a list of NOUNS, VERBS, ADJECTIVES or PHRASES of the same type
          DATE MONTH, YEAR
	  CITY, STATE;
   to delimit parentheticals, such as appositives;
-->TO SEPARATE INTRODUCTORIES:
       introductory words, 
       introductory phrases, phrases displaced at the beginning
because it is natural to pause there;
... of course I never said the ONLY purpose of a comma was that, just the one
relevant for the sample above (as you already know) ...
     I am pretty sure this is the case, therefore my comma is valid.  In the 
case above, "Maybe" is being used as an introductory word (just as "wrong" is).

...and just for your information, semi-colons do NOT separate clauses 
differently (in most cases) than a comma does.  The primary function of 
semi-colon, which denotes a slightly longer pause than a comma does, is to 
separate those things that a comma separates whenever the "comma-clash" 
ambiguity would otherwise result.  For example, look at the listing I made 
above.  Also, the only real purpose of a colon (apart from special uses such
as denoting time) is to introduce listings, or quotations.  It's "meaning"
is to serve as a "pointer" to what comes next.  The only thing you're right 
about is the period (but not all sentences end in a period.  Some end in a
colon).
     The way I learned things (in high school, since I tested out of the 
college courses (what's your excuse?!)) was that all these forms of punctuation
denoted pauses of lengths in the order from shortest to longest: 
      
      COMMA       SEMI-COLON        COLON          PERIOD

>You are wrong.   Your comma,
>AND that of Michael Robinson's which you have pointed out, are wrong.
>Your position is untenable and, frankly, pretty stupid.

Looks like I got you cornered.

>
>>In any case, what makes the nit-pickers' position so untenable is that they 
>>cannot even observe the very "rules" they set out to impose on others.  It's
>>this hypocracy that gives the proscriptivists the bad "bookish" reputation
>>they have.
>
>Have you ever heard of a mistake?  Or, failing that, of satiric effect?

I easily admit my mistakes, wherever I make them.  But I will not stand for
nit-pickers who are so busy looking up (and misreading) syntax rules on 
inessential details that they can't even see what they are talking about.
There were no mistakes in either of the citations.

>All things considered, I'm surprised that you didn't start screaming and
>yelling when you saw my original response to your comma gaffe, which 
>included nearly every punctuation mark available on this keyboard.
>
>>     In any case, notice that where the two marks occur, a comma DOES denote
>>a pause: the kind that we would make after uttering an expletive and before
>>uttering the remaining sentence.i
>
>But neither 'Maybe' nor 'Wrong' are expletives.

Then try "introductory words", if you do not like "expletives".  At least you
are beginning to understand,  major progress.

>Expletives, when used, are
>followed with exclamation points, not commas.  If you had written "Maybe!
>I ought to clarify myself ..." or "Maybe.  I ought to clarify myself ...",
>then you would have been right.  As it is, you are not.

If I had written any of these, I would not be writing what I wanted to write.  
They mean completely different things, again: semantics.

>
>Oh, while we're at it...  "I ought to clarify myself" is also wrong.  You
>cannot clarify yourself, unless you are the Invisible Man.

Well, EXCUUUUUSE ME!  Maybe I'll go out for some fresh air and walk my dog.
(Oh God! I did it again!  I mean "...GIVE MY DOG A WALK")

>What you ought to have clarified is your position or your statement.  Neither
>seems particularly clear so far.
>
That's understandable, given who is reading my postings:
>Michael J. Farren             | "INVESTIGATE your point of view, don't just 
>{ucbvax, uunet, hoptoad}!     | dogmatize it!  Reflect on it and re-evaluate
>        unisoft!gethen!farren | it.  You may want to change your mind someday."
>gethen!farren@lll-winken.llnl.gov ----- Tom Reingold, from alt.flame