Path: utzoo!utgpu!water!watmath!clyde!rutgers!rochester!cornell!uw-beaver!mit-eddie!ll-xn!ames!ucbcad!ucbvax!BINGVAXA.BITNET!POSTMASTER From: POSTMASTER@BINGVAXA.BITNET Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.st Subject: Returned Network Mail Message-ID: <8801060742.AA12351@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU> Date: 6 Jan 88 07:35:00 GMT Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU Organization: The ARPA Internet Lines: 486 Your mail is being returned to you. Reason for return is: %MAIL-E-NOSUCHUSR, no such user VY7379 at node VAXA Returned mail follows: ------------------------------ Received: From CANADA01(MAILER) by BINGVAXA with Jnet id 2191 for VY7379@BINGVAXA; Wed, 6 Jan 88 02:35 EST Received: by CANADA01 (Mailer X1.24) id 2187; Wed, 06 Jan 88 02:34:09 EDT Date: Mon, 4 Jan 88 12:44:50 PST Reply-To: Info-Atari16@Score.Stanford.edu Sender: INFO-ATARI16 Discussion From: Info-Atari16 Digest Subject: Info-Atari16 Digest V88 #2 To: TODD KRISSEL Info-Atari16 Digest Monday, January 4, 1988 Volume 88 : Issue 2 This weeks Editor: Bill Westfield Today's Topics: Re: Multi-tasking? A Nightmare... Re: HELP! the real advantage of multi-tasking. Failing Disk Drive & Strange TPA pointer drive problems Re: Microsoft Write ... Re: Multi-tasking? A nightmare... Re: about ST disk drives (and media change) Cheap Harddiscs ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 23 Dec 87 22:13:59 GMT From: well!ewhac@hplabs.hp.com (Leo 'Bols Ewhac' Schwab) Subject: Re: Multi-tasking? A Nightmare... To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu [ Followups to alt.flame, where it rightfully belongs. ] Someone writes: >> I'm still waiting to see if someone can come up with a use for TRUE >> multitasking that a typical home user would find very handy but that >> cannot be satisfied by a simple 'carousel' approach. There probably >> are some, especially with message-passing, etc., but none have been >> posted yet (except for people waiting for their compilers to finish -- >> they just need faster integrated compilers, though :) >> >> Robert Gardner >> Here's a real-world example. Note that this is from the programmer's perspective, not the user's. As you will see later, this is irrelevant. The specifications are as follows: You are to design a space invaders-type game. There is one spaceship at the top of the screen, and a gun at the bottom. The spaceship moves across the top of the screen from left to right; as it does so, it "drops" letters forming words down the screen. As the user types on the keyboard, the program checks to see if the letter typed matches the one the gun is currently under. If so, the letter is shot and the gun moves one position to the right (to the next letter in the word. If they don't match, a short error signal is delivered to the user. The screen will look like this: --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ...<-=O=-> S P A C E W E L L C R A T H A N T H I S H A L L K I L L T H R I L L L A K E G R E A T A N P A R T D R A T S P A C E B E A T H E A R S E A D R E A A T H E R M A P T H A N F O R H E A R T | A /#\ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The spaceship moves across the top of the screen at a fixed rate. When it reaches the end of the row, all the rows drop down one, and the ship returns to the left side. To make it more interesting, a range of colors in the spaceship are to be cycled, to make it look like it's spinning. The cycle rate is totally independent of any other regular rate in the program. Don't worry about winning or losing at this point; they'll complicate the issue. Now. Design this program, first on a system with multitasking, and then on a system without it. Discuss the design issues that need to be considered, and how you would address them under each environment. "Be specific; give examples." Whether or not the machine multitasks should be made invisible to the user; both versions should run the same as far as the user is concerened. -------- I designed this very program on the Amiga. I was porting the program from the Atari ST, working from the ST source code. Before posting my approach and ultimate solution to the problem, I want to see how others would address it. That is, if anyone cares..... [In the article titled "Re: Multi-tasking? A nightmare...", Dec 22, 1987, ...!uwvax!umn-d-ub!umn-cs!davidli writes:] > How many years have you owned a personal computer Joseph? I don't know about Joseph, but I've been stumbling along for about eleven years now. > Were you ever actually around when punch cards were being used? Yup. IBM 1130. Didn't like it, either. > Were you around when all you could do with a personal computer was toggle > switches on the front panel and bring an AM radio close to the CPU to > produce "music"? Yup. I've even used a ASR-33 TTY. Wow. > Did you ever put together one of those personal computers (you know, > before Radio Shack started mass production of the TRS-80 model I)? No, unfortunately. I lusted after a SOL-20 myself. But then the Commodore PET came out (predates the TRaSh-80, BTW), and I wanted one of those. My first ended up being a C-64. -------- I'm still trying to discover what all this arguing accomplishes... It's fun, though..... _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_ Leo L. Schwab -- The Guy in The Cape ihnp4!ptsfa -\ \_ -_ Recumbent Bikes: dual ---> !{well,unicom}!ewhac O----^o The Only Way To Fly. hplabs / (pronounced "AE-wack") "Work FOR? I don't work FOR anybody! I'm just having fun." -- The Doctor ------------------------------ Date: 24 Dec 87 06:37:55 GMT From: lakesys!rich@csd1.milw.wisc.edu (Rich Dankert) Subject: Re: HELP! To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu In article <2319@dasys1.UUCP> mzyla@dasys1.UUCP (Martin Zyla) writes: >In article <907@atari.UUCP> neil@atari.UUCP (Neil Harris) writes: >>In article <3162@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu>, engst@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Adam C. Engst) writes: >>> >>> I was just working happily along on a philosophy paper when I decided to >> edited >>Sounds like the proverbial "loose chips" problem. Open up the 1040, press >>down on all the socketed chips, and chances are your drive will magically >>start working. >>-- >>--->Neil Harris, Director of Marketing Communications, Atari Corporation > >Neil is probably right about the "loose chips" problem, but in my ex- >periences with ST repairs nearly all problems can be traced to one chip, >the MMU (the square socketed chip in the center of the motherboard). I've >had to reseat this chip on more occasions than you can shake a stick at. >If that particular chip is making poor contact on any of it's 40 points >it can masquerade as any number of problems, output to drives being one >of them. This is a problem seemingly caused by the soft alloy used in >either the chip or the socket. I understand from Atari that their final >solution is to directly solder the chip to the motherboard in the newer >Megas. As for prior machines I suggest some sort of contact enhancement >spray but you must be careful of static or you can kill the chip ($35?). > >Other than that single problem, the ST is a pretty solid machine. I only >wish that this had been taken care of long ago. Many people who thought >they had a problem elsewhere probably had the one mentioned above. > > > > I\ /I ____________________________________ >Martin Zyla I \/ I / >Big Electric Cat I I / {allegra,philabs,cmcl2}!phri!dasys1!mzyla >New York, NY, USA I I / {bellcore,cmcl2}!cucard!dasys1!mzyla > I I / GEnie:mzyla DELPHI:gmz CIS:74216,1372 >__________________________/____ First off I must agree that the ST is a pretty solid machine as stated above. I have been doing the repairs ( Out of Warranty ) for quite a while in the Milwaukee Area here now, The main problem that I have been seeing is in the newer drive mech's. The machines are pretty solid even when they go through alot of transfer. I myself have one of the first machines that came out, in 1985, a revision A board. I have not had the problems with the chips unseating as many other's have had. Now being of the technical nature that I am, by vocation also, I decided to make a fix for the machines and have passed it along via our local user group ( Mil*Atari Ltd. ). It's really quite simple, and has made the fix pretty perminent. What I did was to remove the MMU (Really a MCU) very carefully, and place the chip on a piece of tin foil while out of socket. Now what I did was to take a tool that I fashioned from a dental tool. Mainly it was just the filed down end. With the chip out, I carefully pryed up all 40 contacts on the chip socket, (just a bit for better contact) then took a eraser pencil and cleaned all the contacts making sure that the pins didn't get pressed down again. Now I took a small piece of double sided foam tape (The thin stuff) and placed that in the center of the socket. Now I remount the chip, and reassemble the machine. I have yet to have a machine come back for any reason concerning the MMU, outside of it going bad due to the older power supplies regulator to not regulate too well, and causing damage to the MMU and possibly other chips. Of course you could go about the same routine, except in place of the double sided foam tape, get your local Atari service center to sell you two of the clips that are used on the newer machines, to make sure that the chip stays seated. The above can be done also to the GLUE chip. Same size and type. ---> Disclaimer! "I must mention that if you decide to try this mod, and are NOT a technicion, and still want to do it yourself, your on your own. I take no responsibility for a machine repair that I myself did not repair!" -rich UUCP: {Ihnp4,uwvax}!uwmcsd1!lakesys!rich Discalimer: The words,ideas,and expressions are my own, and not nessasarily always correct, but I always look for the good cheap fix. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Dec 87 20:56:39 GMT From: mcvax!jack@uunet.uu.net (Jack Jansen) Subject: the real advantage of multi-tasking. To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu Lots of people say things like 'I don't need real multi-tasking, I'm happy with a spooler and one or two other utilities'. The point, however, is that applications like spoolers become completely trivial once you have multi-tasking. 90% of the code (and the most error-prone 90%, at that) is spent stealing vectors, jumping in and out of supervisory mode, making sure your program isn't overwritten by something else, etc etc etc. I've been working on a network where a number of atari's can use each others disks, but things got so incredibly hairy that I've suspended the project and started thinking about making the BIOS (or maybe even GEMDOS) multiprogrammed first. This will make my remote-disk almost as trivial as a ramdisk..... -- Jack Jansen, jack@cwi.nl (or jack@mcvax.uucp) The shell is my oyster. ------------------------------ Date: 22 Dec 87 09:36:49 GMT From: mcvax!ukc!its63b!hwcs!neil@uunet.uu.net (Neil Forsyth) Subject: Failing Disk Drive & Strange TPA pointer To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu Boo hoo the disk drive on my 1040ST is not working. I know it is the drive because I have swapped it in other machines and the problem moved with the drive. The symptoms are strange in that it reads every track on a disk fine but has trouble writing. I say trouble because sometime it formats a track ok sometimes not, but never a whole disk. I had a look at a track it had tried to format and found corruption (gap bytes inconsistant & data damaged ie $E5 corrupted.) If I can't fix this drive I will have to buy a replacement and that will kill my slim chance of being able to afford a hard drive. I phoned a company that upgrades the internal SS drive in a 520STFM to DS and asked if the same drive could be fitted inside a 1040. They said no, which I think is pretty strange since I thought (as most do) that the 520STFM was just a 1040 with a lesser drive and some RAM missing. Has anyone else put a different drive in their 1040 or repaired the original one? If so please advise me. (Note: Our machines will be down(ish) from 24th Dec to Jan 5th) Another interesting point: I wrote a little C program print out a programs base page address and the operating systems start of TPA pointer (at $432). When run it printed out a high base page address eg. $23??? and $A100 for the start of the TPA which is to be expected. But when I put the program by itself in the AUTO folder on a floppy and booted up the machine with a power down/up it came up with $A204 and $A100 respectively. Can anyone tell me why the OS takes this memory away? I know I have a megabyte to play around with but I like to ponder/solve such mysteries. Thanks in advance and a Merry Christmas to all who know me or would like to. Neil Forsyth (the man with the ROFDD (Read Only Floppy Disk Drive) Help!) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "I think all right thinking people in this country are sick and tired of being told that ordinary decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I'm certainly not and I'm sick and tired of being told that I am!" - Monty Python Neil Forsyth JANET: neil@uk.ac.hw.cs Dept. of Computer Science ARPA: neil@cs.hw.ac.uk Heriot-Watt University UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!neil Edinburgh Scotland ------------------------------ From: U00296%HASARA5.BITNET@forsythe.stanford.edu Date: 24 DEC 87 16:05-N To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu Subject: drive problems PROBLEMS WITH MY DISKDRIVE Lately I have been experiencing some problems with my diskdrive on my ST (1040). When the machine has been running some time and I write something to my disk (or read something from it) it will keep on spinning (red light also remains on). It seems to be due to the heating of some part, since it does not happen when the machine is cold (boots). A warm boot exstinguishes the light for a moment, bit does not solve the problem. Has anyone had similar experiences with his ATARI, and if so what was the solution? Any comments are appreciated. Niels Walet BITNET/EARN U00296@HASARA5 UUCP mcvax!amolf!walet ------------------------------ Date: 23 Dec 87 02:00:25 GMT From: portal!atari!neil@uunet.uu.net (Neil Harris) Subject: Re: Microsoft Write ... To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu In article <1987Dec20.223242.1574@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu>, lharris@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu (Leonard Harris) writes: > Can anyone give me an exact date of when Microsoft Write is supposed to > appear. Started shipping this week. Finally! Look for it at dealers within the next couple of weeks. > Wordperfect isn't perfect I'm helping to beta test the next release of WordPerfect. Despite the problems, it is still awfully good. And the support is fabulous. -- --->Neil Harris, Director of Marketing Communications, Atari Corporation UUCP: ...{hoptoad, lll-lcc, pyramid, imagen, sun}!atari!neil GEnie: NHARRIS/ WELL: neil / BIX: neilharris / Delphi: NEILHARRIS CIS: 70007,1135 / Atari BBS 408-745-5308 / Usually the OFFICIAL Atari opinion ------------------------------ Date: 24 Dec 87 07:30:11 GMT From: coplex!jim@bloom-beacon.mit.edu (Jim Sewell) Subject: Re: Multi-tasking? A nightmare... To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu In article <11191@oliveb.UUCP>, dragon@olivej.olivetti.com (Give me a quarter or I'll touch you) writes: > > I think that these arguments aren't representative of an *average* user, > since an average user is more likely not to own a modem. Oh, I don't know about that. Our Amiga club did a survey of its users, who would probably fit into most people's idea of "normal" users, and over 80% of them had modems. Granted, most of them used the modem for bbsing, but that is certainly an environment in which one could use multi-process capability, be it true multitasking or simply context switching. Amazingly enough, the RS Color Computer Club I formerly belonged to had a much-much lower percentage of modem users (on the order of around 20% if I remember correctly). Perhaps it is too much of a hassel to do a days work one step at a time? I wouldn't consider myself a "normal" user either, but something I have found quite handy is the ability to have a directory showing up on one page while trying to reorganize it on another. Jim Sewell | "Make knowledge free!" Freelance Programmer | "Anyone need a program? 8-)" ------------------------------ Date: 22 Dec 87 18:43:50 GMT From: portal!atari!apratt@uunet.uu.net (Allan Pratt) Subject: Re: about ST disk drives (and media change) To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu in article <8712211937.AA01474@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU>, gjwelych@SUNRISE.ACS.SYR.EDU ("Welych, Gregory J.") says: > What in the Atari drives senses the change of media? > And how does the drive signal this to the ST? The media-change sensing is done using the write-protect signal from the drive. The assumption is that when you take a write-enabled disk out of the drive, the write-protect sensor will pop up, and the drive will signal "write protect" to the controller. When you put another disk (or even the same disk) in the drive, the write-protect sensor will be pushed down again and signal "not write protect." When a disk is really write protected, of course, there will be no transition on the line. Because of this, write-protected disks go into the "maybe changed" state 1 sec (I think) after the last disk access. (The assumption is that you won't change from one write protected disk to another within one second). When a disk is in the "maybe changed" state, the next access (through RWABS or maybe Floprd) will check the serial number of the disk in the drive. If it hasn't changed, then the disk hasn't changed, either. This is another assupmtion: you should not have two disks with the same serial number. If your drive suppresses write protect changes when there is no disk present, then switching from one write-enabled disk to another will not cause the transition, and the BIOS will not sense media change. Sorry. Nobody said it would be easy. ============================================ Opinions expressed above do not necessarily -- Allan Pratt, Atari Corp. reflect those of Atari Corp. or anyone else. ...ames!atari!apratt ------------------------------ Date: 23 Dec 87 10:30:36 GMT From: mcvax!diku!iesd!lbn@uunet.uu.net (Lars Bo Nielsen) Subject: Cheap Harddiscs To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu Considering the relative high prices on ST-Harddiscs, and the forever falling prices on PC compatible harddiscs, it seems natural to attempt interfacing one of these to the ST. We are aware that there might be a lot of problems. Not knowing the PC-hardware in details, one of the problems one could foresee is the existence of a DMA-controller on the PC-controller card. Since the ST is allready fully equipped in this respect, the PC-DMA might get in the way. Another problem is the fact that, when booting up, the ST makes certain assumptions on the part of the (possibly) connected harddisc. I.e it has to understand certain commands (bitpatterns). We saw the solution offered in "ST World", in which two adapterboards were used. One to convert the ST-interface to SCSI, and the other to connect a bare industrystandard drive to the SCSI. The cost of these two boards plus the bare drive, however, nearly equals the price of an ordinary ST-drive (at least in this part of the world, don't tell us about high taxes :-). So, if anybody out there has any suggestions in this respect, please let us know. We will summarize any received mail, in a posting to the net. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Lars Bo Nielsen (lbn@iesd.uucp) Steen Kroyer (judas@iesd.uucp) -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- ---------------------------------------------------------------- | Lars Bo Nielsen | lbn@iesd.uucp | | Department of Computer Science | | | Aalborg University | | | D E N M A R K | {...}!mcvax!diku!iesd!lbn | ------------------------------ End of Info-Atari16 Digest ************************** -------