Xref: utzoo talk.origins:972 alt.flame:1526 Path: utzoo!hoptoad!amdcad!ames!sri-spam!rutgers!princeton!phoenix!greg From: greg@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Gregory Nowak) Newsgroups: talk.origins,alt.flame Subject: Re: Flat Earth? More mindless drivel. Summary: Round-earthers don't know which way is up. Keywords: Round-earther Idiocy Mindless Drivel Message-ID: <1570@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> Date: 28 Jan 88 18:58:57 GMT References: <4238@uwmcsd1.UUCP> <1867@wiley.UUCP> <10731@shemp.UCLA.EDU> <862@elmgate.UUCP> <1551@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> <864@elmgate.UUCP> Reply-To: greg@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Gregory Nowak) Organization: Cabal of Fools Lines: 111 In article <864@elmgate.UUCP> ram@elmgate.UUCP (Randy Martens) writes: }In article <1551@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> Gregory Nowak(me) writes: }}In article <862@elmgate.UUCP> ram@elmgate.UUCP (Randy Martens) writes: }}}His postings are even more amusing than ever. The essential flaw in his }}}arguments is this: There are no round earth theories, because the earth }}}being round is _FACT_ . Do you hear that Mr. "Mathemagus". Not theory. }}}Fact. Period. }}Calm down. Please explain to us hall how you have managed to bypass }}scientific method, and now come to certain knowledge of the natural }}world by divine revelation. There are no facts, only theories. The }}round-earthers have their theories which they believe explain the }}facts comprehensively and consisely. So do the flat-earthers. By }}jumping up and down and screaming "FACT! FACT!" you merely reveal }}yourself as an ignorant child who is unfit to discuss matters of }}science. If you are as certain as you claim to be, why don't you }}reveal the grounds for your certainty, instead of mindlessly chanting }}about how the earth is round, without providing your proofs? Science }}isn't a beauty contest. Different theories can be accomodated, and may }}the simplest and most comprehensive theory win.(Sometimes simplicity }}and comprehensivenss come into conflict; this is where the fun begins }}-- and where my recent work lies.) I suggest you also attempt to be }}less rude to Mr. Joly. }Hi Greg. *sigh* I am surpised at your siding with this bunch of pinheads. }But I think you have some valid points, so I will respond to them. (Randy begins politely, but does not respond to my points ...) }I stand by my statement. The Earth is roughly Spherical. In fact, it is }quite close to a true sphere, it's oblateness being only on the order of }130 km and it's roughness only 20 km. So the total roundness is .98. Yes, I can look things up in round-earther almanacs too. What dies this prove? "They wouldn't print it if it wasn't so?" Come on, Randy, you're not that naive. }Not too bad. The difficulty I have with Mr. Jolly and his position, and }the reason I find it so laughable, is that the _FACT_ of the shape of the }Earth has been established by hundreds of scientists, explorers, and }lately by quite a few astronauts. The point has been proved beyond any }shadow of any doubt. Therfore,[sic] I do not _need_ to prove my point. }Facts are already well established, and need no further proof. Randy, you are arguing with the eloquence of a drunken football fan. "Facts is facts. I don't _need_ to prove my point." Yes, you do. If you wish to debate the issue, you must prove your points. Don't expect us to roll over merely because you assert that your position is a "fact". That's rather poor debating style. You also display an appalling ignorance of the nature of science -- how it works and progresses. Now, since my field is History of Science, I admit that I am prone to exaggerate the need for such knowldege. But if you plan to participate in this discussion, I suggest you get better informed. The cemeteries are full of men who thought that merely saying "FACT!" proved their point, and they were wrong. Look at your much-vaunted Newton. He was true beyond need of proof according to your round-earther physics.... for a while. You know very little about science if you think we will be convinced by empty claims. }But apparently, Mr. Jolly takes this stuff seriously. Unless he is }putting us all on, this brings his sanity into question. That's it, trot out the ad hominem attacks. Why not argue politely and stick to the subject? By the way, "Joly" is spelled with one "l". Try to get it right. Childish tactics are rather boring. }I am by the way quite calm. I _DO_NOT_ want to stop Mr. Jolly from }continuing his postings on the topic of platygaenism. Please post, Mr. }Jolly. I need things to laugh at. Randy, I ask you once again -- if you do not intend to participate seriously, I suggest you exempt yourself from the discussion. Abuse does none of us any good. }By the way Gweggy, you owe me an apology for that remark about "ignorant }child". Childish name-calling is in no way justified by an appropriate simile. If you persist on standing in the middle of the playground screaming, "There is TOO a Santa Claus!" I feel quite justified in calling you an ignorant child. }I can be quite an apt and persausive debater if I need to, and if you You need to. Now. Or get out if the discussion. }wish to question my aptitude for the discussion of scientific topics, I will }gladly engage in a discussion of the currently [sic] technologies in optics, }Astrophysics, particle physics, atsronomy,[sic]computing technology, robotics, }process control, or the history of the Holy Roman Empire. There are probably }a few other topics I could feel relatively competant in if you wish to discuss }them. Since you have not ever had such a discussion with me, I would ask that }you refrain from insulting me on this matter. We are discussing physics. Not Astro- or particle, but mechanics and its bastard children. We are trying to have a discussion of science, but your idea of discussing science seems to be "I'm right. Story's over." I would be glad to discuss science with you -- begin whenever you wish. }* Randy Martens @ rochester!kodak!elmgate!ram I suppose next you're going to try to convince me that Kodak only makes spherical film .... -- ...!seismo!princeton!phoenix!greg Greg Nowak/Phoenix Gang/Princeton NJ 08540