Path: utzoo!utgpu!water!watmath!clyde!rutgers!sdcsvax!sdcc6!calmasd!wlp
From: wlp@calmasd.GE.COM (Walter Peterson)
Newsgroups: comp.ai
Subject: Re: words order in English and Japanese
Summary: Word Order in Japanese and English
Message-ID: <2617@calmasd.GE.COM>
Date: 15 Jan 88 16:35:03 GMT
References: <1671@russell.STANFORD.EDU>
Organization: G.E.- Calma R&D, San Diego, CA
Lines: 67

In article <1671@russell.STANFORD.EDU>, nakashim@russell.STANFORD.EDU (Hideyuki Nakashima) writes:
> I came up with a theory to explain the difference in word orders
> between English and Japanese.  This is a very naive theory.  Any
> comments are welcome.
> 
> In English, verbs come very early in the sentence...

Not only does Japanese ( and Korean, which is *VERY* close to Japanese
grammatically and which I know far better than I do Japanese ) "delay" the
verb until the end of the sentence, but it is also *Post-positional* rather
than *prepositional* as English is. One would say "store to going am I" 
rather than "I am going to the store".

>
> Another example is negation marker.  In English it comes very early
> while in Japanese it comes at the end.  You cannot tell if the sentence
> is positive or negative until you hear the very last, in Japanese.

That is true; however, nothing prevents the Japanese speaker from saying the
equivalent of "No !  Don't touch it !" ( No !, it touch not ! ), to use your
example.

> 
> Now, English (probably I can say Latin) speaking people are basically
> hunters, while Japanese are basically farmers.  Hunting is a real-time
> job while farming is not.

There are several problems with this line of reasoning:
1) Latin is every bit as postpositional as Japanese.
2) English has borrowed a good deal of Latin vocabulary, but *VERY* little
   Latin grammar.
3) English developed in the basically agrarian culture of medieval England
   *NOT* in a hunting society ( in fact, after 1066, it was illegal for the
   *English* people to hunt most game.  That "right" belonged to the
   Norman conquerers. )

> 
> ...                                                            ...That
> will allow development of language which fits to express very delicate
> things, like person's mood.  (I think this is why Japanese has very
> complicated honorific system.)  So, in Japanese, you can specify lots
> of objects first and then combine them together at the end with
> several modifications added further.
> 

There may be a different cultural explanation.  We English speakers, 
Americans in particular, are often considered to be direct (blunt) to the
point of being rude. This is especially true in the Far East, where such
directness is considered *VERY* rude.  The postpositional and terminal verb
nature of many Asian languages may be the linguistic expression of this
cultural trait. The exact meaning of the sentence is delayed as long as
possible to avoid offending anyone.

There is a serious flaw in any arguments like this.  They all assume that
the culture comes first and that the culture directs the development of the
language.  I don't know that that is actually the case.  The language may 
define the culture or there may be such a complex feedback between language
and culture that it is not possible to tell which has the stronger effect
on the other.



-- 
Walt Peterson   GE-Calma San Diego R&D
"The opinions expressed here are my own and do not necessarily reflect those
GE, GE-Calma nor anyone else.
...{ucbvax|decvax}!sdcsvax!calmasd!wlp        wlp@calmasd.GE.COM