Path: utzoo!utgpu!water!watmath!clyde!rutgers!sri-spam!ames!sdcsvax!ucsdhub!jack!crash!pro-pac.CTS.COM!tsouth
From: tsouth@pro-pac.CTS.COM (Todd South)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga
Subject: Re: Software Prices (very long)
Message-ID: <2420@crash.cts.com>
Date: 27 Jan 88 10:12:24 GMT
Sender: news@crash.cts.com
Lines: 170

::>> In article <155@atrium.UUCP>, chanst@atrium.UUCP (Steve T Chan) writes:
:>   In Article: <4744@watdragon.waterloo.edu>, palarson@ (Paul Larson) writes:
>>   In Article: <2408@crash.cts.com> (Todd South) writes:
>    In Article: <39940@sun.uucp> cmcmanis@sun.UUCP (Chuck McManis) writes:

::>> If the software companies could just get the software prices lower, then
::>> people will buy them to get the documentation instead of just pirating
::>> them, I just hope that the software companies will listen and drop their
::>> prices.. See, $20-50 is a reasonable price for a software package in
::>> my point of view, but $90-200 or 300 is way overpriced.  How would
::>> you expect people to buy stuff thats overpriced?? They don't

::>  In my opinion, your suggestion of software packages for lessa than fifty
::>  dollars each is ludicrous, considering the how much development time and
::>  effort a good piece of software represents.  However, we do live in a
::>  capitalist democracy, so nothing is preseventing you from voting with your
::>  wallet.

>>Paul, it's your kind of thinking that really blows me away in terms of the
>>actual authors making money on software.  If a mail-order house can buy
>>software (or hardware) for a _low_ price, and sell it for sometimes as much
>>as 80 dollars (US) less, then how can you say that the authors would NOT make
>>the same amount of money simply distributing it to the end-user themselves?

    This __\  /__ was my main point, I should have clarified it.
            \/
>>I still think that there are too many middle people in this market, and
>>most of the major companies like it that way.  Ultimately, the reason that
>>a number of contributers to this system, who write commercially, seem to
>>discount is the fact that each and every software purchase by a majority of
>>users is a _major_ purchase, and that, my friends, is why piracy exists.
>>It is not just the simple fact that people cannot afford it, but that they
>>cannot afford to get burned, also, with each purchase that doesn't do what
>>they need.

>Actually, Todd is displaying a lack of understanding here hopefully we
>can educate him before he goes broke.
>
>
>  etc, etc... into the longest and most _well written_ response that
>              I have ever seen on this forum!
>


Now, Chuck, the response from you was excellent, and I actually learned a lot
about you, and opinions in general from the _small_ software developer.  So,
PLEASE do not take this as a *flame* as I do not mean it that way and I want
to expand on the original point that I was trying to make and should have
clarified in the first place.

What I am talking about is not the small-time developer.  I'm refering to the
developer that does nothing but manage.  I admit, I may have ASSuMEd too much
from the short response of Paul Larson in the above messages, and if so, I
would like to admonish that.  I have two cases in point that I would like to
pose to you that will show what I am talking about.

[Background]:

I'm in the military, and do not program for a living, and do not make that much
money. Period.

[Case One]:

I just saved up enough money to buy my first modem upon returning to the states
from overseas.  I walk in, pay cash for the modem, and then find out that there
are no Software packages other than the one published by Apple in the store.
(Which I shall call WallyLand so as to no implicate that particular store)
I purchase this communications package, called Apple Access ][ from the dealer,
and go home happy.  When I get home, the package works fine.

[Five Days Later]:

I find out that it is possible to send and receive programs via the modem
(DON'T LAUGH this was a LONG time ago!) and try to do it.  The process looks
fine, but the end-product refuses to work!  Then, after some research, I find
out that this program that I paid 90 dollars for has KNOWN bugs in it that
don't allow it to transfer files right.  So, I go back to the dealer and ask
for my money back because the package does _not_ do what it _specifically_ says
that it will do (in my opinion).  His opinion was that if it transfers them
then it works, even if the transfered product does not.  I called the manager
of WallyLand and he said that all software was non-refundable, and they would
not even apply the purchase to another product if I gave them the program back.
I called Apple Computer, Inc. and was told that they could not help me as all
support for the product was supplied through their 'authorized' dealer only.

[Moral]:

I became involved with a group that programmed on a regular basis and worked
on the kind of projects I liked, so I joined them.  Unfortunately, we all
are in the military, so the only way to work efficiently was by transfering our
work to each other (due to incompatible military schedules).  So, I said,
"Bye Bye 90 dollars" and bought something that I KNEW worked from the results I
saw watching how other modemers transfered files.

[Case Two]:

Back to WallyLand, I wanted to buy Pinpoint 2.0 accessories for my Appleworks
program (by now I ASSuME that most of you realize I am an Apple user at home)
and was told that they had it.  I drove down to WallyLand, and bought the
package that was reserved for me (It had no version number on the outside and
the dealer would not open it up to find out, but promised that it was version
2.0).  Arriving home, I booted up the software (which had no version number in
the manual, registration, or disk label) and saw a quickly flashed screen that
said version 1.0!  So, I immediately trudged down to WallyLand and got the same
answer that I received with Access ][ -- "We don't do refunds."  I called the
Pinpoint publishing people, and they said that for 25 dollars (over the 70 I
had just blown!) they would send me the upgrade, and that I had to send the
original disks along too.  So, I asked how long it would take, and they could
not give me a time.

[Moral]:

I got pissed off, and bought a rival product that had the version number on the
labelling of THEIR product, and Pinpoint sat on my desk till I sold it to
someone that could use it with their older version of Appleworks for a LARGE
loss on my part.  Net loss: 40 dollars.

[Conclusions]:

Well, first off, I probably should have titled my Subject line a little better,
and explained myself to the net a little better. But, I have hashed this
subject around on my bbs a lot, and something in those conversations that
related to what Paul said triggered my hostility to the companies that charged
(in my opinion) a lot for a product that they really didn't support well or
publish well (again in my opinion).  So, I have come to the conclusion that
there are just too many middle persons involved in the whole process, and in
your own article you even stated this over and over:

>Now you are up to having to sell 180 copies
>before you start making money, however the magazine will give me credit
>so I don't have to pay that right away. Besides, these magazines
>assure me that "thousands of Amiga enthusiasts" read their magazine so
>I'll probably sell hundreds more copies.

>A third comes up, wants to buy it but only if she can use her credit card.
>Since you don't have a merchants number with a bank you have to refuse. She
                                                 /|\
>The distributor
>says "Great, will take 20 at the standard discount." Being naive and not
>knowing what the standard discount is you ask. They tell you it's 60 points.
>Meaning they will buy the programs from you for 40% of the list price or
>$19.98 each. This lets them sell them to dealers at 40 points and then
>the dealers can still make a little money if they take 10 or 20% off the
>list price.

Steve Chan (remember him, the first letter in the synopsis?) wrote about
companies, not authors.  I meant that authors who work for companies do get
paid (at least the ones that I know of) decently.  Lotus, I feel, sells for
so much because they KNOW that businesses write it off!  Not, because they
want to make the home user pay.  Although, I will have to admit one thing --
Lotus sure as hell provided my work center with support!

Again, thanks for the really interesting and really entertaining response. You
ought to do some short stories!

Also, I am currently saving up for an Amiga 2000 (or 3000, depending on when
I have enough money :-) !) and really like the ability of the net here to
throw around and talk about products/anything on a national basis.  The
ability to send mail directly to CATS alone makes my running a bbs system that
interacts with Usenet, BITNET, etc.. a definite plus.  I only wish that more
people could get involved in the 'total net' and gain from its current and
future users' knowledge, information, and willingness to help...

Todd South

     +------------------------------------------------------------------+
     | uucp: crash!pnet01!pro-simasd!pro-pac!tsouth | Now I only get 50 |
     | Todd South : Ewa Beach, HI.                  | cents less than   |
     | Pacific Proline: (808) 499-2831 2400 bd.     | minimum wage...   |
     +------------------------------------------------------------------+