Path: utzoo!mnetor!uunet!husc6!bbn!uwmcsd1!ig!agate!ucbvax!ICDC.LLNL.GOV!OBERMAN
From: OBERMAN@ICDC.LLNL.GOV ("Kevin Oberman, LLNL,  422-6955, L-156", 415)
Newsgroups: comp.os.vms
Subject: RE: OPINION. TPU, EDT
Message-ID: <8802060156.AA00386@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: 5 Feb 88 16:15:00 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Organization: The Internet
Lines: 93

>If we step back in history, we'll remember:
>
 ...

>3) EDT.
>     Full-screen/Line-oriented/Character oriented.
>     Now here we have a powerful editor, for interactive work as well as
>     for off-line text processing. The only functionality I missed was
>     the "wild" change from EDI:  "C/The...man/Nothing", and, somewhat later,
>     multiple windows, after I had seen Emacs.
>
>4) TPU/Eve.
>     Full-screen/Multiple-Windows.
>     Is this really an improvement? In my opinion Eve is only a very
>     rudimentary editor. Maybe you can get used to its user interface, but it
>     doesn't have the inbuilt power of EDT. Naturally, you can make your
>     own routines but that is not what I am hired for (I won't even speak
>     about TPU's verbosity here, as compared to EDT change subcommands).
>
>It looks like we have reached a stage where you can only speak of _changes_
>in software instead of _improvements_. As long as there is no good EDT
>emulator written in TPU, provided and supported by DEC, with multiple windows
>as _additional_ functionality, I will still be using the old EDT.
>
>However, I do not doubt the power of TPU as a text processing language, but I
>think its complexity (syntax, compiling etc) puts to much of a burden on the
>user, even if he's a good programmer. Why learn TPU as a language? We already
>have Snobol, Icon, Pascal, C and even Fortran-77...
>
>I would be very dissappointed in DEC if EDT (i.e., the full functionality
>of EDT) is going to be dropped in VMS V5.x.

FLAME ON!

At the Anaheim DECUS symposium there was a session comparing various VMS
editors (Editor Wars). The clear winners were EMACS (EMACS Make A Computer
Slow) and TPU (EVE). The list of things which could be done in EVE and EMACS,
but not EDT, was truely impressive. The most significant, in my opinion, are
multiple windows and the ability to bring DCL commands and there responses into
the session. The last thing I want to do is go back to EDT! 

On the other hand, if you want to keep using EDT, go right ahead. It certainly
works (slowly). If you don't want to learn TPU, don't bother. I can believe
that you have better things to do. But don't toss out silly straw men to
justify your outrage. 

There is no need, I suppose, to learn TPU. It's enough like Pascal that it is
very easy to learn, but even without learning TPU you can still use the LEARN
and DEFINE KEY EVE functions to customize the editor and it's keypad. EVE is an
editor. And, I believe it's a pretty good one. TPU is a text processing
language. I think it's pretty good, though far from perfect. If you only want
to edit, use EVE. If you need specialized text processing, use TPU. 

The argument that learning a new language after already learning several is
totally irrelevant. That's like saying that you shouldn't have to learn a new
language for an AI application when you already know Pascal. Pascal is simply
not a good language for all applications. If you want to text processing, don't
try FORTRAN. It may be possible, but it's rather impractical. I must confess
that I still feel more comfortable prograsmming in FORTRAN than any other
language. That doesn't mean I deny the value of C, Pascal, or other languages.
They are better in many respects. I could even survive if FORTRAN disappeared
from my system. And I would become much more proficient at C very quickly.
It is even possible that my overall job perfomance would improve. But I'd
still be upset at not having `good old' FORTRAN.

Finally, who said anything about EDT being dropped in V5.x? I heard some
rumours that EVE would become the default editor in V5, but not even that from
any of the developers. If EDT reaches the usage levels of SOS in V2, I don't
doubt that it will fade away. And many people will be upset. But while SOS had
some really nice features, can you really justify the expense of supporting it
for the very few people who used it when DEC finally dropped support? If EDT
ever reaches that level, I suppose you will have to get by without it, too. But
with EDT's current popularity I don't see that happening until FULL EDT
functionallity is made available from EVE. 

FLAME OFF!

I realize editors are very personal things. They are many peoples most common
tie to an operating system. If I had had EDT pulled out from under me before I
had gotten used to EVE and TPU I would have been more than a bit miffed. But
there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that EVE is a major step up from EDT.
And if the developers were to read your letter, deceide that you were right,
and drop EVE, I would feel just as upset as you do about any possible demise of
EDT. 

					R. Kevin Oberman
					Lawrence Livermore Natioal Laboratory
					Internet: oberman@icdc.llnl.gov
(415) 422-6955

Disclaimer: These are my personal opinions. They do not have any relation
to those of my employers, who don't really care about what editor I use.
They may not even know what an editor is.