Path: utzoo!utgpu!water!watmath!clyde!rutgers!mailrus!umix!husc6!mit-eddie!uw-beaver!cornell!rochester!bbn!uwmcsd1!ig!agate!ucbvax!VLSI.JPL.NASA.GOV!dowst From: dowst@VLSI.JPL.NASA.GOV ("Henry P. Dowst") Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple Subject: Interesting Notes from GEnie Message-ID: <880213165416.1662@VLSI.JPL.NASA.GOV> Date: 14 Feb 88 00:54:15 GMT Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU Organization: The Internet Lines: 185 Topic 12 Sat Feb 13, 1988 UNCLE-DOS [ Tom W ] at 17:24 EST Sub: GEnie's Copyright Policy This topic is for questions and answers about GEnie's policies regarding ownership of the information available here. 2 message(s) total ********** ---------- Category 1, Topic 12 Message 1 Sat Feb 13, 1988 UNCLE-DOS [ Tom W ] at 17:31 EST At 11:15 AM on February 10, 1988 Neil Shapiro, Chief Sysop of the Apple II area, MAUG(tm), on CompuServe, posted MAUG(tm) message #171913, which made a number of inflammatory misstatements about GEnie's copyright policy. A word- for-word copy of that message was posted here by a mutual subscriber, however, because of CompuServe's own copyright claims to the message, I had to delete the word-for-word version. I encourage Neil to post the original here himself. Here's a paraphrase: Neil thinks GEnie's copyright policy is unfair and unreasonable. He is galled that GEnie's policy is "exactly the policy that has been falsely reported as being CompuServe's and which we have had to take lots of heat over before telling people what the REAL policy here happens to be." Neil says that under GEnie's policy there is no such thing as freeware. CompuServe's policy, according to Neil, is that an uploaded program is treated as public domain if the author states that it is public domain. Public domain files may be shared by members, Neil says. If an author doesn't say whether a program is public domain, then the file is considered to have an "informal author's copyright." Anyone who wants to upload such a file must contact the author for permission. GEnie's policy, according to Neil, is to copyright "EVEN STATED public- domain files on their network. The difference is that CompuServe merely copyrights the compilation of the files. GEnie...actually COPYRIGHTS THE INDIVIDUAL copies of the files....I think it is inimical to the free flow of information, underhanded double-dealing with freeware authors who specifically place material in the public domain, and very two-faced when you consider all of the lying, anti-CIS bullshit (sorry) which many of the sysops on GEnie have happily promulgated at every turn." "I really always try to never cut down 'the competition.' I try to never give an opinion as to the networks other than to say that the MAUG(tm) staff has always and will always try to make MAUG(tm) the best place that you can visit with a computer. But, in this case, if I don't say what I believe is right then I think I would have failed a trust. What is right is to allow files and programs the distribution EXPECTED and/or REQUESTED by the authors. For a network to glom onto even the most minuscule of rights not fully granted by an author is absolutely reprehensible. Sorry, but that's how I feel," he concludes. ----- Bll Loden, General Manager of GEnie, posted the following message in the MAUG(tm) area a couple of days later, however, it was deleted within four hours: 12-Feb-88 17:00:00 Sb: #171953-GEnie Copyrights Fm: Bill Louden 70010,102 To: Neil Shapiro/Chief Sysop 76703,401 Neil, I am pleased to see you trying to explain the GEnie service to MAUG users; but you are inaccurate on a number of points. First, GEnie has a compilation copyright policy just like CompuServe--we DO NOT claim to OWN or SUPERSEDE the rights of the owners'. We do, however, maintain that files uploaded to GEnie should not be downloaded and then re-uploaded on other services - that, I believe is still CIS's position as well. If a owner uploads a file to GEnie with explicit instructions to have the file re-distributed on other services, GEnie has no problems and would NOT intervene in that distribution. I realize that the success of GEnie has impacted your revenue stream Neil; but there are more professional ways to compete and provide a quality service to ALL online users than to resort to calling me "sleezy." Give me a break. P.S. I do not object to your re-prints of the GEnie policy guides on MAUG; you also have my permission to publish our Rates and Services INDEX as well. Best Regards, Bill Louden General Manager GEnie GE Information Services Company ----- Here's what GEnie's subscriber contract says about rights to information (emphasis mine): 3. Proprietary Rights All of the information, material and software available for access through the GEnie Service is the property of the Company OR OF ITS INFORMATION PROVIDERS. You agree not to copy, publish, commercially exploit, sell, transmit or otherwise reproduce that information, material or software, except as may be expressly permitted by the Company OR THE INFORMATION PROVIDER at the time access is made available to you, and then only on condition that you reproduce and include therein any copyright notice of other proprietary legend contained in the information, material or software at the time of access. You acknowledge that any violation of this restriction is an infringement of copyright or other proprietary rights. "Information provider" is not defined. When GEnie's lawyers wrote the contract, they probably meant the area "sysops", although a judge or jury might determine that it means, for example, the original author of a public domain program, or perhaps the uploader of a public domain program (if uploaded by someone other than the author). In any case, as far as public domain material goes, the author, the uploader, and I have all given our express permission for you to do whatever you want with the material by virtue of the fact that it IS public domain. Public domain materials in GEnie's Apple II areas consist of all items that do not have their own copyright notice. Items that include a copyright notice are not public domain. However, sometimes authors who have copyrighted their work give permission for it to be used for non-commercial purposes. Sometimes these authors ask for shareware fees. Sometimes they expressly prohibit republication of the material after it has been downloaded from GEnie. GEnie's proprietary rights clause appears to me to have been carefully worded to protect the rights of all of these people. I don't know anything about CompuServe's contract or policy, so it would be difficult for me to compare ours with theirs. I suspect CompuServe's policy is essentially the same as ours, however, or at 3? MQ "! " }r5kVVn aren't worth fighting over. Peace, Neil. xDTom Weishaar ---------- Category 1, Topic 12 Message 2 Sat Jul 25, 1987 J.LUBIN [Jim] (Forwarded) To all concerned: I would like to know why people condone the copying of music (i.e. digitized music for the //gs) and condemn others for copying of computer software calling it 'piracy'. The following message was found on a piece of software. This was the only warning I found out of 9 programs I looked at. (Lunar Leeper by Sierra On-Line, Inc.) "UNAUTHORIZED COPYING OF THESE PRODUCTS IS A VIOLATION OF FERDERAL LAW. (TITLE 17, U.S. -CODE, SECTION 506.) VIOLATION MAY CARRY A FINE OF UP TO $50,000, OR IMPRISONMENT, OR BOTH." The following message was found a cassette tape picked at ramdom. They all say it. (St. Elmo's Fire; Atlantic Recording Corporation) "Warning: Unauthorized reproduction of this recording is prohibited by Federal law and subject to criminal prosecution." Another: (Kate Bush: The Whole Story; EMI America Records) "ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. UNAUTHORIZED DUPLICATION IS A VIOLATION OF APPLICABLE LAWS." Differances? Well, software companies go to much greater lengths to enforce their copyrights (i.e. Copy Protection). Does this mean the law applies less to the music industry. The music industry does not condone the copying, unauthorized reproduction, or duplication of their products. This is shown in the controversy over Digital Audio Tapes. Solutions? Well, as I see it there are two solutions. Either allow copying of computer software, or do not allow the copying (digitization) of music. Jim Lubin *S