Xref: utzoo talk.politics.misc:7620 alt.flame:1723
Path: utzoo!dciem!nrcaer!cognos!crcmar!steve
From: steve@crcmar.crc.uucp (Steve Ardron)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.flame
Subject: Re: Historical and Geographic inaccuracies.
Message-ID: <622@crcmar.crc.uucp>
Date: 25 Feb 88 16:37:48 GMT
Article-I.D.: crcmar.622
Posted: Thu Feb 25 11:37:48 1988
References: <9612@steinmetz.steinmetz.UUCP>
Organization: CRC, Ottawa CANADA
Lines: 55

From article <9612@steinmetz.steinmetz.UUCP>, by oconnor@sunset.steinmetz (Dennis M. O'Connor):
> An article by steve@crcmar.crc.uucp (Steve Ardron) says:
> ] > It's much easier indeed to be like all other European countries who 
> ] > carefully avoid to get directly involved in the Middle East. 
> ] > Let French and American and Israeli idiots die in Lebanon, while Royal 
> ] 				      ^^^^^^
> ] Exactly! The only reason Americans died is because they were stupid!
> ] (I'm refering ot marines, not civilians, many other countries have lost
> ] civilians) Their Goddamned weapons weren't even loaded! and their
> ] security measures were ludicrous.
> 
> That does it. There aren't enough insults in the whole world for
> you, you half-brained uninformed oppinionated asshole.
> 
> The Marines were ordered in there, ordered NOT to load their weapons,
> and NOT ordered to build proper defenses. They did what they were
> ordered to due. Obeying lawful orders is the essense of any
> military organization, but it's part of the pride of the Corps.
> Those men died because they were Marines, not idiots.
> 
> The IDIOTS who killed them where mainly CIVILIANS. Assholes
> who wouldn't let the Marines shoot back. Who told them to
> hold ground without fighting back. Who didn't have a foriegn
> policy that could have dealt with the situation more safely.
> Who care more about symbolism than human life.
> 
> The principle IDIOT who got those good soldiers killed was Ronald Reagan.

  Sorry, you missunderstood me. I probably should have phrased it better
than I did, but I was making a simplification and building on a previous
article. Obviously the marines themselves didn't have a choice about
loading their weapons, only a complete moron would go into a fire zone
with an unloaded gun (no gun maybe, but an unloaded one? :-). I was saying
that American action as a WHOLE in lebanon was stupid. They could have
had better security though, I'm sure neither Reagan or the upper brass
told them how to set up security (unlike the don't fire back order).
However, I do think that the fact that they lacked experience with
terrorism had a lot to do with the outcome. Having never seen that form
of "warfare" before, they could have taken a few lessons from other
nations.

  I don't see how the civilians who are required to be there are stupid,
e.g. embassy staff, and others who needed to be there. I agree the
journalists deserve everything they get, I feel they are brave to go
there, but don't expect there resoective governments to get them out
after they get into trouble.

  I really am surprised that the marines all obeyed that order about
unloaded weapons. They could obviously expect to be hit sooner or
later, so I would have expected some to try and break that rule. Better
to get into trouble later, than to have men die because of a superiors
stupidity. I guess marines are just brainwashed into following orders
a little too well. Discipline is fine, to a point...

					    Steve Ardron.