Path: utzoo!mnetor!uunet!mcvax!ukc!dcl-cs!nott-cs!anw
From: anw@nott-cs.UUCP
Newsgroups: comp.lang.misc
Subject: Re: First Languages (yet again)
Message-ID: <545@tuck.nott-cs.UUCP>
Date: 9 Feb 88 17:57:17 GMT
References: <4022@ames.arpa> <2400002@otter.HP.COM> <932@its63b.ed.ac.uk> <2781@omepd> <619@cresswell.quintus.UUCP> <1154@zen.UUCP>
Reply-To: anw@nott-cs.UUCP (Dr A. N. Walker)
Organization: Department of Mathematics, The University, NOTTINGHAM, NG7 2RD, UK.
Lines: 41

In article <1154@zen.UUCP> vic@zen.UUCP (Victor Gavin) writes:
>One of the main problems that I have noticed in classes is all the snotty
								    ^^^^^^
>nosed kids who have ``learned'' to program at home on their BASIC computers,
 ^^^^^
>*all by themselves*.

	We obviously have a better class of student than you do.  Why knock
    people who are motivated enough to do something "all by themselves"?

>Unfortunately their methods and practices usually stink.

	We obviously have a better class of student than you do.

>This means that before you can teach them Good Habits, you have to unlearn
>them of their existing Bad Habits.
>
>By forcing them to use a language which doesn't allow them access to their old
>habits you make it easier to show them what you are talking about. [...]

	This is pedagogically disastrous.  "Forcing" them to do *anything*
    will ensure that they treat you as the opposition.  They will be saying
    "In Basic, we could do so-and-so, why can't we do it in your supposedly
    superior language?".  You have to demonstrate that your way is superior,
    not ram down their throats what pathetic, snivelling creatures they are
    for knowing only Basic.

	The problem is that, in the early stages, your way almost certainly
    isn't superior.  All of the standard elementary computing problems --
    solve a quadratic, partition an array, draw a graph, count the number
    of words in this sentence, etc. -- go just as well and as easily in
    Basic, structured or not, as in [name your favourite language], and
    they know Basic better than [nyfl].  Further, their Basic on a home
    computer very likely runs rings around [nyfl] on [nyf computer] when
    it comes to graphics, sound, games, etc.  Why should they be interested
    in [nyfl]?  The answer comes much later, when they move up from toy
    programs to serious programs, and when software maintenance becomes a
    serious problem to them.  But you can't -- and shouldn't -- rush the
    process.  Just do things your way, let them do things their way,
    help them constructively when they get into trouble, and let osmosis
    work in its own good time.