Path: utzoo!mnetor!uunet!mcvax!ukc!its63b!cstjc From: cstjc@its63b.ed.ac.uk (A Cunnigham) Newsgroups: comp.lang.misc Subject: Re : First Languages Message-ID: <1016@its63b.ed.ac.uk> Date: 25 Feb 88 12:36:26 GMT Reply-To: cstjc@itspna.ed.ac.uk (A Cunnigham) Organization: I.T. School, Edinburgh University, Scotland, U.K. Lines: 99 Keywords: ML Organization:Dept. of Computer Science, Univ. of Edinburgh, U.K. wcs>. Remember that 1st-year students, even CS students, are studying wcs>. more than just CS100, and, if possible, they should have *some* wcs>. usable programming knowledge as soon as possible. While it's wcs>. probably a Bad Thing to expose them to BASIC, whatever wcs>. functional language you teach them had better be adequate for wcs>. doing chemistry and physics homework, numerical integration for wcs>. calculus, statistics for their psych classes, and the like. >Good point, Bill. This is generally the point I was trying to make. Wrong Wrong Wrong. CS1 courses exist to teach people about computer science. They are not in general service courses for other departments. Here we run 3 first year courses. One is for computer scientists, one is for other scientists, one is for Arts students. ( By the way we teach the other scientists Common LISP as well as Pascal. ) >Incidentally, I don't happen to feel that's a good thing. It would be >nice if a physicist (for example) could stick primarily to physics and >not have to learn a second discipline (computer science). Hopefully, >the legacy of our generation of programmers will be a considerable >simplification in computer user interfaces. wcs.> And somewhere along the lines, engineering students will *have* to wcs.> learn Fortran, if only so they can do interesting *engineering* wcs.> research without having to rewrite EISPAK and its hench-programs. nevin1> And engineers DO NOT have to learn FORTRAN!! >On which planet? Your statement is rhetorical and doesn't have practical >value. I think you would be hard pressed to find an engineering curriculum >which didn't require FORTRAN (with the possible exception of Computer Science, >which you may or may not count as engineering). Right Right Right. Engineering courses can teach FORTRAN after we ( computer science ) have taught them HOW TO PROGRAM. You can teach anyone to ride a bike and after that they can ride any bike. It's just that using a bike with square wheels isn't very good for teaching. Computer Science most certainly IS NOT engineering. If anything it's a branch of mathematics. pcm> [ ... ] I have just changed jobs. In no interview was I asked pcm> whether I knew ML; in every interview I was asked if I knew C. >I've been generally amused at the response I've gotten to this statement. >As a footnote, I'll add that I used to list ML on my resume as one of the >programming languages I know. I finally removed it because (1) nobody >had ever heard of it, and (2) when I explained what it was, they didn't >care. If they don't care then they ain't worth working for! >...and smaller companies can't afford to train you how to program in C, >so you probably won't get a job there unless you know C. But if you know HOW TO PROGRAM then it doesn't matter if you know C ( or any other language for that matter ). All you need is the manual and a language definition. nevin1> Learn the good programming habits first; then pick up all the 'fad' nevin1> languages. It will pay off a lot better in the end. >Now let me get this straight. Fortran, which has been around since about >1950, and C, which is the implementation language for the defacto industry >standard operating system and about a jillion utilities and applications >programs, these are the fad languages, right? >Incidentally, the implication here is that you can't learn 'good programming >habits' in C. Bullshit. You can learn 'good programming habits' in any language providing they're taught well. It just happens that some languages are better for teaching them in ( eg ML, LISP, Modula-2 ) than languages that let you pull all sorts of nasty tricks. Would you teach someone to drive in a Formula 1 racing car ? Or a tank ? >Lucky for me, though, I know ML and Prolog, so if I ever have to your >planet, I'll be able to get a job ;-). >Phil Miller Stay off my planet - I like it the way it is! Anthony Cunningham. 'I think of Sarah. The rest is easy.' -- Anthony Cunningham, Dept of Computer Science, University of Edinburgh. ARPA: tjc%ed.ecsvax@ucl-cs.arpa UUCP: ...!{decvax,ihnp4,seismo}!mcvax!ukc!ecsvax!tjc JANET: tjc@uk.ac.ed.ecsvax I think of Sarah. The rest is easy.