Xref: utzoo alt.flame:1753 talk.politics.misc:7844 Path: utzoo!hoptoad!ptsfa!ames!mailrus!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!princeton!phoenix!pucc!Q2816 From: Q2816@pucc.Princeton.EDU (Creative Business Decisions) Newsgroups: alt.flame,talk.politics.misc Subject: Re: Bullet-proof passports? Message-ID: <4611@pucc.Princeton.EDU> Date: 29 Feb 88 22:40:17 GMT References: <3276@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> <3184@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> <3096@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> <792@athos.rutgers.edu> <9612@steinmetz.steinmetz.UUCP> <4568@pucc.Princeton.EDU> <4581@pucc.Princeton.EDU> Reply-To: Q2816@pucc.Princeton.EDU Organization: Princeton University, NJ Lines: 139 Disclaimer: Author bears full responsibility for contents of this article In article <3276@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU>, lazarus@athena.mit.edu (Michael Friedman) writes: >}}The European nations paid off the Barbary pirates. We >}}didn't. They kidnapped American citizens and attacked American ships. >}}We went to war and kicked their butts. > >}So? What has this to do with Lebanon or the rights of Americans >}abroad? It was in our economic interest to fight the Barbary pirates. >}We didn't do it because of a slogan. >No. We did it because we refused to let our citizens be kidnapped and >because we weren't willing to pay tribute to prevent this. That is why >it is relevant to Lebanon. If we hadn't an economic interest in the region, we would never have bothered, and there would have been few US citizens there in the first place. We fought that war to protect our trade interests, which involved having US citizens travel there. >}}}They [the Marines] died because they were on a mission they were unprepared for. >}}}The CinC sent them there against the wishes of the Commandant and the >}}}heads of other services. They were untrained as peacekeepers. >}}There is no great trick to being a peacekeeper. All you do is put >}}yourself between the warring factions and tell them "If you fight you >}}die." It takes no special skills. > >}Then you get into a war with the people you're trying to stop from >}warring. >}Nice going, Michael. You've just descibed something called "occupation." >}It's NOT the same as peacekeeping. >So what's the difference? You tell me. How do you 'peacekeep' You QUIETLY keep tensions from building. Same as the UN has done, usually successfully, in the region since 1949. >}}It [peacekeeping] doesn't take proper training. And who ever heard of doing a >}}peacekeeping job with unloaded weapons? >}Peacekeeping most certainly DOES take training. Ask the Commandant >}of the Corps. >}You must know who the warring parties are, >That's called a briefing. Did the Marines who patrolled the streets know who the various people were? How to recognize them? Can YOU name the warring parties in Lebanon, Michael? >} command some respect, >That's called being obviously strong enough to do a lot of damage. It >doesn't take special training. That is part of the normal mission of >the Marines. Damage to whom? If you don't know who's who, you don't know whom to retaliate against. Brute force is not what peacekeeping takes. Brute force is for wars. Or are you telling me that war is peace? >} understand what to do and not to do in order to keep from >}antagonizing the warring parties into doing something that endangers >}you, them and the populace, etc. >This last is the nub. Please expand on it. If you fight for one side (which you suggested was our real mission in Lebanon), you are not a peacekeeper but a combatant, a partisan. If the other side THINKS you are their enemy, they will attack you and not respect your efforts. >}Lt. Col. Higgins, the most recent hostage, is one of these men. To >}suggest that the job he did was worthless or not requiring any skill >}beyond military training is to betray an ignorance a thousand times >}worse than the kind I accused you of in my last posting. You simply >}haven't a clue. >So what does it take? Oh, right, I forgot. You don't know how to look things up for yourself. Fine education they're giving you there at Tech. It takes an understanding of the situation (one briefing genreally won't be enough), perhaps some knowledge of the language, an understanding of what the various people want, how to communicate with the various factions without offending them, knowing the relationships between factions, and being prepared to mediate small quarrels on a daily basis with as little force as possible. Once one side perceives you as being a soldier on the other side, you ARE just that for all practical purposes and all your brute strength won't help you. >}}I. You don't reply to the argument. Do you agree that it is shameful >}}that we didn't retaliate? >}We should retaliate if our commitment to the area involves fighting a >}war based on that retaliation. By retaliating, we lose our status >}as pecekeepers, such as it was. >Don't be silly. Once we left our 'status as peacekeepers' was >unimportant. Retaliation does not have to mean war. Bombing raids work >just as well. And whom were we going to bomb? We don't even know who SENT that truck. Besides, your silly comment ignores my reference to a "commitment to the area." If we want to accomplish anything other than getting even after having paid for our blunder, we must stay and not leave. And staying under those conditions would imply some sort of occupation. By blundering and then leaving, we LOST influence in the region. Get it? >}}}And by the way, the job of the Marines is amphibious landings. Not >}}}peacekeeping. >}}Wrong. The Marines are an elite force. You use them when you have a >}}tough job. >}Wrong. They are not trained to do the tough day-after-day job of >}peacekeeping. The troops themselves said they felt out of place, >}unable to get a handle on the job they were there to do. >When in doubt, ask a Marine. I asked a guy in Marine ROTC. According >to him, if you want to do something like what we did in Lebanon you >use the Marines. Marine ROTC! Wow. The ultimate authority. I based MY comments on the words of the Commandant, the Chiefs of Staff, and interviews with the men who were there. Dozens of military analysts all said the same thing: the Marines were very good at establishing their base there, but once that was done, they were pretty much at a loss as to what to do next. Roger Lustig (Q2816@PUCC.BITNET Q2816@pucc.princeton.edu) Die Gedanken sind frei! Wer kann sie erraten?