Path: utzoo!mnetor!uunet!lll-winken!lll-tis!ames!mailrus!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!ut-sally!utah-cs!utah-gr!uplherc!sp7040!obie!wsccs!terry
From: terry@wsccs.UUCP (terry)
Newsgroups: comp.os.vms
Subject: Re: Vax C Sucks Wind
Message-ID: <244@wsccs.UUCP>
Date: 2 Mar 88 05:40:21 GMT
References: <8802220606.AA16924@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU>
Lines: 68
Summary: Luna-C on VMS

In article <8802220606.AA16924@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU>, aharon@WISDOM.BITNET (Aharon Shtull-Trauring) writes:
> 
> Low and behold we noticed that the C objects are between 5 and 10 times larger
> than the Pascal objects.  Worse yet, what was a 5000 block image (compiled
> and linked with debug) under pascal, is now 40000 blocks.

	As far as the object size is concerned, *STOP* compiling with the
/DEBUG and /NOOPTIMIZE qualifiers!

> After talking
> to the Dec support people here in Israel, who turned to the European
> support center, we were told that 'C under VMS is not a devlopment language'
> (this is a direct, uncensored quote)!!!!!!!!!!!!

	This is typical.  We have been selling our VMS terminal emulator/
file transfer program into Europe, and I was told basically the same thing
by an Digital engineer from Germany.  After several far-from-cheap calls
and faxes, it was determined that the reason the were having problems with
the code file, despite Digital/Europe's claims that it was a 'bug' in our
code, was the fact that most European sites aren't even running VMS 4.4 yet.
According to one source, support is attrocious.  For all you net-landers, we
have 4.7.  Call your service rep.  He's holding out.

> We are in fact starting
> to do all our debugging on our Suns and Apollos.  Nonetheless, I do forsee
> having to debug on the Vaxes to find all the wierd bugs VAXC no doubt will
> cause.  I should mention, that most of the 40000 blocks were debug records
> (according to the map).

	Again, *STOP* compiling with the /DEBUG and /NOOPTIMIZE qualifiers!

> Digital Europe claimed (again this is a direct quote)
> that all the extra stuff is things the compiler added so that C can
> emulate unix!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

	Digital's C does not emulate UNIX.  If it does, it is pronounced
'Eunochs', as in casterated.  The only place I found even an attempt at
compatability was in resoloutin of filenames, and then only if you bought
DEC/Shell (an optional product).  I have a good 300,000 lines of C code which
doesn't run, even in the DEC/Shell environment, to prove this.  On the other
hand, our primary product does run very well, so it can be done, at the
price of a lot of time.

> My question:
> (1) Has anyone else encountered a similar problem and how did they get around
> it (if they did)?

	YES, and nearly 8 months of re-coding.

	What version of VMS are you running?  I suspect you are running an
older version where the libraries for C are not linked shared.  Linking shared
will substantially reduced your executable size, but on sites prior to 4.6, you
are likely to get an error regarding and inability to run ...[sys0.]crtl.exe,
as they have to be installed shared to be run correctly.

> (2) Are there any good third party C compilers with good debuggers
> available out there that run under VMS, that won't cause the same problems?

	Whitesmiths is bad.  It is not UNIX or VMS compatable.  Your
mileage may vary, of course.  I have found the Whitesmiths C for the
Charles-Rivers Data Systems box to be more than adequate in a UNIX environment.


| Terry Lambert           UUCP: ...!decvax!utah-cs!century!terry              |
| @ Century Software       or : ...utah-cs!uplherc!sp7040!obie!wsccs!terry    |
| SLC, Utah                                                                   |
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