Path: utzoo!mnetor!uunet!mcvax!ukc!dcl-cs!bath63!pes
From: pes@ux63.bath.ac.uk (Smee)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.wizards
Subject: Re: Re: Help us defend against VMS!
Message-ID: <2329@bath63.ux63.bath.ac.uk>
Date: 16 Mar 88 18:21:09 GMT
References: <867@unmvax.unm.edu>
Reply-To: pes@ux63.bath.ac.uk (Smee)
Organization: AUCC c/o University of Bath
Lines: 52

In article <867@unmvax.unm.edu> mike@turing.UNM.EDU.UUCP (Michael I. Bushnell) writes:
>
>All this VMS vs. UNIX discussion brings up an interesting thing I
>heard recently:
>
>  DEC does its VMS development under Ultrix.
>
>Now, we all know that Ultrix isn't really UNIX, and that it probably
>should be thrown out the window, but it is certainly a lot better than
>VMS.  At least thats what the writers of VMS think.

Well, what that *actually* shows is that the writers of VMS think that
a Unix-like environment is better than VMS FOR DEVELOPING SYSTEM
SOFTWARE.

This meshes with my own view that Unix is a very good, and powerful,
system for computer programmers to use -- but that it is not really
very friendly for 'naive' users.  (They're the ones who aren't
interested in computers as such, but simply want to use them as tools
to solve problems in their own fields; frequently using 'brought-in'
packages because they don't like to, or can't, program.)

Fortunately (for us computer bods) this fact, coupled with the
popularity of Unix, ensures lots of jobs for Unix programmers to
produce user-friendly wrappers or shells.

One of the more popular defenses of Unix is that 'well, it's easy to
provide user-friendly tailored environments'.  I'd say that ideally you
shouldn't need to.  (I think that the goal of Computer People should be
a system that *IS* friendly to everyone, rather than a system which can
be made to be friendly to everyone.  Tricky?  Sure.  That's why we get
paid so well.  A tailorable system -- like Unix -- is a good first
step, but it's ONLY a first step.)

(Before all you Unix fans out there leap on me, read the original Bell
Journal articles about the development of Unix.  The authors explicitly
stated that their intent was to produce a powerful tool FOR SYSTEM
PROGRAMMERS.  They (and I) think they succeeded.  If I'm being
heretical, then so are they.)

(Further PS -- I don't much care, personally, for VMS.  What I'm
objecting to is the original implied comparison, which is silly.  It's
like saying that because the folks who built your house used a crane to
bring in the bricks, therefore you should use one to bring in your
shopping.  And, I've become quite fond of Unix; I just don't think that
it (or any other O/S) is a magic solution for all problems.  Keep a
sense of perspective.)

All meant in the friendliest possible way.  I think we do better if we
don't become too locked into a particular framework of ideas...

Cheers, Paul