Newsgroups: can.politics Path: utzoo!lsuc!dave From: dave@lsuc.uucp (David Sherman) Subject: Re: Joe Clark's speech to the CIC Followup-To: talk.politics.mideast Date: Mon, 21-Mar-88 05:26:16 EST Message-ID: <1988Mar21.052618.9530@lsuc.uucp> References: <560@auvax.UUCP> <1988Mar15.024839.27444@lsuc.uucp> <568@auvax.UUCP> Organization: Law Society of Upper Canada, Toronto This discussion has very quickly gotten to the point where it belongs in talk.politics.mideast. I have posted two fairly long articles, written by others, which fairly summarize my views on the current conflict. I will reply to some points below and then leave the matter: In article <568@auvax.UUCP>, louis@auvax.UUCP (Louis Schmittroth) writes: > I know where Louis Schmittroth was during World War II -- > serving in US Army. And I would have been in the Canadian Army had I been alive (and old enough) at the time. > I have been reading an almost heart-rending account of the oppresion > of Palestinians by Israel, written a young Israeli journalist, David > Grossman. The title of the book is the Yellow Wind, and will be > published in New York by Farrar, Straus. He is 32, born in Israel, > and speaks Arabic. This is an absolutely shocking book. > > Israel was born in violence and terroism, and it looks like it will > continue in violence and terrorism. People whose ancestors had lived > in Palestine for hundreds of years all of a sudden were told that since > God had promised Palestine to the tribes of Israel, they would have to This is absolute nonsense. First of all, the vast majority of Jewish settlers were not religious and would not be quoting God at anyone. Yes, the Jewish people have had ties to the land for thousands of years. There has always been a Jewish presence in the land. When the Zionist settlers first began arriving in large numbers in the late 18th and early 19th centuries, the country was swamp and desert. (Read Mark Twain's account of Palestine as a total backwater.) Yes, there were Arab communities. The Jews didn't kick them out. They bought land from Turkish and Syrian landowners and reclaimed thousands of acres of land, making the land bloom again. There was plenty of room for both peoples on the land. It was the Arabs who totally rejected an independent Jewish presence in their midst. Remember that 77% of Palestine was carved out by the British and handd to the Hashemite clan to form Trans-Jordan, too. The "Palestine" which remained was then divided up into two countries by the UN proposal. It was the Arabs who rejected that proposal and attacked Israel. The Jews weren't just fighting for a state -- they were fighting for their lives. And still are. Israel held out the olive branch of peace from before it was formed; it was the Arab leaders who told the people to leave to leave the way clear for the Arab armies to wipe out the Jews. Since World War II some 70 milllion refugees have been displaced and found new homes. Israel absorbed over a million from Arab countries. Why could the Arabs not find a way to resettle the Palestinian refugees? Because they are more interested in wiping out Israel than in helping their brethren. > leave. The creation of the Jewish state was one of the biggest mistake > of the postwar era. HOWEVER, that is done, and cannot be undone! Now Mistake? I don't think you have the slightest conception of what Israel means to the Jewish people, Mr. Schmittroth. We've learned the hard way what happens when we have no home of our own, thank you very much. The world gives its sympathies to dead Jews; we prefer to stay alive and offend the world. > is the time to consider some way out the hate and violence. The first > step is for Canadian Jews to realize that Israel is not always right, > and that the repression and brutality of the occupation of the > remaining Palestinian lands cannot go on forever. Granted on both counts. But giving in to rioting is hardly the way to encourage a peaceful solution. Israel has always been prepared to negotiate with its Arab neighbours, or with representatives of the Palestinians. But there's no point negotiating with an organization whose sole objective is to destroy you. > > And I cannot agree with those who, sitting in safety in Canada, > > can purport to tell Israel how to handle riots. Remember that > > in 1970, it took only two kidnappings and a murder to trigger > > the War Measures Act and the arrest of hundreds. And Canada > > is hardly in danger of being pushed into the sea. I didn't see a reply to this point. > > Toronto Star, March 14, 1988, page A4, reporting on a demonstration > > in Toronto on Sunday: > > "We must have truth, justice and war, war, war > > until Palestine is liberated from Zionism and U.S. > > imperialism," Imam Bilal Muhammad told the cheering > > group. "We don't want part of the pie, we want the > > whole thing." > > > > That is one Palestinian's view. To be fair you should quote the > many who want peace, who are willing to work for peace. And you Wake up and look at the facts, please. The PLO charter calls for the destruction of Israel. PLO officials have been quoted many times that a Palestinian state on the West Bank would be only a "first step" towards a Palestinian state on all of "Palestine". Note the "cheering group" in the quote above. Just who is Israel supposed to negotiate with, since Jordan won't come to the table? (See the other postings.) >From: ray@micomvax.UUCP (Ray Dunn) >Oh, by the way, how can one be killed in a "relatively minor" way, by a >soldier acting with "restaint"? One can't. Thousands can. Thousands haven't been. > >Occupation Soldiers Beating Up Kids are Occupation Soldiers Beating Up Kids, >whether they are being photographed or whether they are doing it in a dark >cellar. Whether we can hear their screams or whether we can not. Whether >the soldiers' kids had themselves been beaten by *other* soldiers, or not. Whether the "kids" had just been throwing rocks and bottles at the soldiers, with intent to maim, or not... >Armed Agressive Oppression is Armed Agressive Oppression, whether we are >talking about Palestine, Afghanistan, Sharpville, Derry, Kent State, jew, >gentile, white, black, catholic, protestant, islamic. Yes, and whether or not the alternative is national suicide. Whether or not the people occupied previously used the land to attempt to destroy the now-occupier. Whether or not the people occupied are willing (after having LOST the war, for goodness' sakes) to make some accommodation and try and solve matters peaceably. >>Where were Joe Clark and Louis Schmittroth when Syria wiped >>out the entire population of Hama (20,000 people) a few years >>ago? >> > >As I said above, Joe, whose party I *don't* support politically by the way, >started on the Russians, then "picked-on" on the South Africans and has only >now moved on to the Israelis. As the original poster put it "I wish to >commend Joe Clark"! None of which answers my question. If Israel is evil in killing 100 rioters, does that not make Syria 200 times worse? Should we not have heard 200 times the amount of screaming from Joe Clark and Louis Schmittroth (and Ray Dunn)? And the same in so many other situations? >> What about the Iran-Iraq war, with its millions of >>casualties? What about human rights abuses in 30 countries >>in Africa, or throughout Eastern Europe? Central America? Kampuchea? >>Afghanistan? Panama? Fiji? Can you say "double standard"? >> >Exactly! Fantastic, you agree with me, you have just classified the Israel >situation with the above list of other situations which you imply are >injustices. So, if that's what you believe, be consistent, and live with >the consequencies of this classification. Can *you* say "double standard"? The double standard comes in the way Israel is always in the spotlight, always taken to task, when so many other injustices exist. Yes, Israel is not perfect, and I noted in my last posting that there have been excesses. (Note the recent convictions and jailings of some soldiers on such counts. Heard of any internal discipline of PLO terrorists? Or Syrian soldiers? Or etc. etc. etc.?) >Israel was forced on the Middle East by the stupid Brits (I'm one of them) Nonsense. Britain did everything it could to *prevent* Jewish immigration and support the Arab cause. Israel came into being through the sweat and blood of Jews. >and we're all paying for that fact. I can't blame the Palestinians for >wanting 'their' land back. I can't blame the Israelies for protecting what >they now find themselves with. This doesn't justify oppressing the whole >region to ensure their own "security". "Security" can be defined in any >terms, didn't Hitler have something to say on that subject as a reason >d'etre for some of his actions?? Stop bringing up idiotic analogies. Go back and read a paper from May 1967 and learn about security. Read about how the Arabs were going to push the Jews into the sea and kill them all. Look at a map and figure out what Israel is like without the West Bank. While you're at it, count up the number of square miles in the Arab countries and the number of square miles in Israel, and ask yourself why Israel can't be left alone. >Would a visitor from another planet, witnessing *the actions of* the >blackshirts in Germany in the 30's then the Israelis in the Gaza Strip or >Jerusalem in the 80's justify one situation but not the other? [*note the >emphasis*] I find your analogy offensive. Would a visitor from another planet witnessing *the actions of* a World War II partisan beating or killing an SS officer justify that situation? That's just as meaningful a question. >No part of the history of the jews, or any other group of people, including >the holocaust, gives them the right to act in the same abominable way that >they have been acted against! I find this even more offensive. If you think the Israelis are acting towards the Arabs the way the Nazis treated the Jews, you don't know the first thing about (a) the Holocaust or (b) the present situation. Go back to the 100 dead and ask why it's not thousands, or hundreds of thousands, if you seriously think you can make that analogy. The Palestinians who are being "attacked" are those who are rioting. Not a pleasant situation to be in, having a mob approach you with rocks and bottles. >Methinks I rant on a little too much..... Perhaps far too much. David Sherman -- { uunet!mnetor pyramid!utai decvax!utcsri ihnp4!utzoo } !lsuc!dave