Path: utzoo!mnetor!uunet!nbires!hao!boulder!pell
From: pell@boulder.Colorado.EDU (Anthony Pelletier)
Newsgroups: sci.bio
Subject: Re: Intelligent Parrots, or Self-deception and Gullibility.
Message-ID: <4931@sigi.Colorado.EDU>
Date: 18 Mar 88 20:44:48 GMT
References: <1988Mar4.162334.18184@utzoo.uucp> <4687@sigi.Colorado.EDU> <2037@ll1a.UUCP>
Sender: news@sigi.Colorado.EDU
Reply-To: pell@boulder.Colorado.EDU (Anthony Pelletier)
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Lines: 52

In article <2037@ll1a.UUCP> cej@ll1a.UUCP (Jones) writes:
>In article <4687@sigi.Colorado.EDU>, (Anthony Pelletier) writes:
>> In a typical demonstration, she, or one of her assistants will
>> hold up a few different objects that are all the same color and
>> ask "what same?" to which alex will respond "color" and, if asked,
>> tell what the color is. Or, several geometric shapes of the same
>> color might be held up and Alex asked "what different?" to which
>> he would respond "shape." 
>
>	From this description it seems that the animal may just be
>expressing a classical conditioned response to external stimuli.
>
>	All this really indicates is that a parrot (or, more
>properly, a macaw) can distinguish between shapes.  (I don't believe
>that macaws have color vision.  It may be that a certain "answer" is
>associated with a certain combination of items.)

It seems a bit strange that a bird that depends so much upon colour
in mating identification etc. should be color blind; but what do I know?
I'm not a real biologist.  Get me with anything larger than a single
cell and I'm hopelessly lost.

>
>	No "Clever Hans like cuing" is required in this case.  The
>objects and the question are cuing enough.
>
>	With classical conditioning, it wouldn't matter.  The real
>trick with Hans was that anyone could ask any questions that could
>be answered a number of stamps, not just a fixed set of questions
>dealing with a fixed set of objects.
>
>...ll1a!cej		[Just me, not AT&T]		Llewellyn Jones
>

Sorry, I did not mean to imply that  there was only a fixed set of shapes
and objects (actually, I did not think I did).  Irene can use lots of stuff.
I've only seen keys, small blocks, and fruit used; but one gets the feeling
she can use most anything you find hanging around.
There are also other types of demonsatrations.
So, I still think the posibility of unconscious cues is the thing that needs
to be ruled out.

Once again, does anyone know if that experiment has been done?

If Clever Hans did all the things you mentioned, i.e., learned what
cues meant "stop counting" for several people and generalised that
out to all people (a sigh of relief from one person, a raised eybrow
of disbelief from another, and axious biting of a lip from a third)
then he was indeed very clever.  It strikes me that this form of learning
is a good deal more than stimulus-response-type conditioning.

-tony