Path: utzoo!hoptoad!uunet!husc6!mailrus!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!im4u!rutgers!topaz.rutgers.edu!morrow From: morrow@topaz.rutgers.edu (John Morrow) Newsgroups: alt.individualism Subject: Re: Individualism - Reality or Myth? Message-ID: Date: 4 Apr 88 04:38:17 GMT References: <779@udccvax1.acs.udel.EDU> <1081@PT.CS.CMU.EDU> <7705@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> <4344@chinet.UUCP> <4283@hoptoad.uucp> Reply-To: morrow@topaz.rutgers.edu (John Morrow) Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J. Lines: 61 In article <4283@hoptoad.uucp> laura@hoptoad.UUCP (Laura Creighton) writes: >We may have a problem in definitions here. What do you mean by ``defined''? >Influenced? I'll buy that. Completely determined. Nope. I'm >neither a philosophical determinist nor a fatalist. Are you denying >the existence of free will? I'll give it a shot. I'll, for the sake of arguement (read: I don't really believe what I am about to say for religious reasons...), argue against free will in the context of a universe with no "supernatural". Will is a product of the mind. The mind is the product of the physical brain. "Free" implies a choice. I assert that no choice really exists because the brain, being a physical entity, is a collection of chemicals, bound and unbound, reacting with each other and chemical reactions don't make choices. Claiming that you have "choices" is like claiming that a computer chooses to put a "T" on the screen when you execute the line '10 PRINT "T"' in basic. You, like the computer, are programmed for certain behavior. This programming is often called instinct but it exists in everyone. You have an "instinct" to learn to speak because your brain is programmed in such a way that it reads and interprets audio signals and processes them through a language center not unlike a speach recognition module for a computer. It them processes it which consists of programming for storage and meaning. If necessary, it can be run through and output module making additional hardware (the body) move and speak. So? A glorified computer. If you touch a fire and get burned, your brain processes the physical stimuli for the fire and associates it with the consequences. The next time fire is encountered, the brain "knows" what it is and it sets up checks to block actions that will cause pain. "AHA," you cry. "I can CHOOSE to put my hand in the fire." Normally you would not because the programming is there not to. That programming may be overridden by higher goals. You would do something like that to prove free will. That seems to have high priority for some reason (the programming doesn't have to be logical) and to PROVE it, the brain processes how it can do that and it comes up with "stick hand in fire", overriding the "don't" message. As a matter of fact, if I just said "you don't to things that endanger your life", you would search the table of things that do and if "hand in fire" was the first thing you hit, you would have said "but I can stick my hand in a fire," right? Basically, you would not choose to stick your hand in the fire without a reason Where is the choice? I can drive just by popping the destination into my mind. I just "wind up there". Why? I set up a parallel, sub-mind, process that works just like it would if my mind was getting the output and I do it. If things become important, my mind illustrates the situation for storage and I "pay attention". That doesn't mean I am "choosing" anything, just that I am storing it. In short, the brain is a chemical processor that doesn't choose anymore than a computer chip. The mind, as a reflection of that, doesn't really choose but illustrates a train of thought. If you want to claim the mind is seperate, you must prove it. Scientifically, I doubt it can be proven. A dead body without a mind weighs as much as a live body with one just like a computer which is off wieghts as much as one that is on. Making a choice implies that you can make the wrong choice. How can your brain function under "wrong" physics? >The universe is expanding, but I still can't find a parking space. Try getting them to build a deck... >Laura Creighton