Path: utzoo!mnetor!uunet!lll-winken!lll-lcc!ames!umd5!mimsy!frabjous!nau
From: nau@frabjous (Dana Nau)
Newsgroups: comp.ai
Subject: Re: Explorer (vs. Sun) Experience ?
Message-ID: <11061@mimsy.UUCP>
Date: 14 Apr 88 17:20:03 GMT
References: <3470003@wdl1.UUCP>
Sender: nobody@mimsy.UUCP
Reply-To: nau@frabjous.UUCP (Dana Nau)
Organization: U of Maryland, Dept. of Computer Science, College Pk., Md. 20742
Lines: 76

In article <3470003@wdl1.UUCP> mikeb@wdl1.UUCP (Michael H. Bender) writes:
>PLEASE - if you have any experience with the TI Explorer environment,
>or have made any comparisons between it and the SUN environment,
>please help us by lettin us know ....

I've had extensive experience with Suns, Symbolics machines, and Explorers.
Currently, my research group has two Explorers and three Suns.  We use the
Explorers for Lisp programming, and the Suns for other stuff.  I haven't had
any experience with a Mac-II, so I can't comment on that.

>An associate of mine is debating between the purchase of a Mac-II with
>the TI Explorer board, or a Sun workstation.  Currently, he has a Sun,
>and he wants to buy 2 Mac's and link them togehter (NFS? IP/TCP?).  He
>will be running Knowledge Craft Primarily.
>
>QUESTION 1)
>How hard is it to learn to use the Lisp environment on the Explorer?
>Is it as difficult as the Symbolics used to be?   
>
>In the past - people have told me that it takes close to a year to
>become expert on the Symbolics (much less on the Sun) ... is this true
>for the Explorer also?

The operating systems for both the Explorer and the Symbolics are based on
some code which was originally developed at MIT.  Thus, at one time, the
operating systems for the Explorer and Symbolics were nearly the same.
Lately, TI and Symbolics have diverged a bit in the enhancements and
modifications they've made to the operating systems, but there are still a
lot of similarities.

The operating system is complex, and when I was first trying to learn it, I
got pretty frustrated.  However, it certainly didn't take me as long as you
indicate above; I was pretty proficient after using the machines for only a
few months.  Furthermore, it was well worth the effort, because once I
became proficient, I found Lisp programming on the Lisp machine to be much
easier than it had ever been on a Sun.

>QUESTION 2)
>How hard is it to maintain the software and environment?  He is afraid
>that if he gets a Sun he will need to hire a Unix guru.... Will he
>have to hire an Explorer/Zeta-Lisp expert if he gets a MacII with the
>TI board?

I don't know anything about the Mac, but we're doing pretty well with the
Explorers on our own.

We do have a maintenance staff for the Suns, but that's because my
department has several dozen Suns and has made a commitment to maintaining
them for everyone in the department.  Our staff has made a lot of
modifications and enhancements to the Sun operating system--and what it
would be to use a Sun without our maintenance staff, I don't know.

>QUESTION 3)
>Does the TI environment (which I assume will completely run on the
>Mac-II) provide a large number of libraries that would otherwise have
>to be developed on the SUN workstations?

For Lisp programming, I much prefer an Explorer or Symbolics rather than a
Sun; for text processing and such, I use the Sun.  On the Lisp machines,
Lisp is thoroughly integrated with the operating system, and as a result,
you can quite easily do things with windows, menus, editing, debugging,
etc., that would be pretty painful to do in Lisp on the Sun.  For example,
if I want a pop-up a menu on the explorer, I simply call a built-in Lisp
function, giving it the menu title and menu entries, and telling what should
be done for each menu entry.  That kind of thing is substantially more
difficult on the Sun.

If the Mac II has the same kind of Lisp/Operating System integration that
the Explorer has, then there might be some advantages to it since it can do
other general-purpose programming too.  However, I'd want to check it out
carefully first.  The Mac operating system and window environment are
substantially different from those on the Explorer and Symbolics, and I have
no idea how they've integrated Lisp with all this.

Dana S. Nau				ARPA & CSNet:  nau@mimsy.umd.edu
Computer Sci. Dept., U. of Maryland	UUCP:  ...!{allegra,uunet}!mimsy!nau
College Park, MD 20742			Telephone:  (301) 454-7932