Path: utzoo!yunexus!unicus!craig From: craig@unicus.UUCP (Craig D. Hubley) Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga Subject: Hey, Commodore Sales: Amiga 3000 Warning Message-ID: <2503@unicus.UUCP> Date: 10 Apr 88 04:41:16 GMT Article-I.D.: unicus.2503 Posted: Sun Apr 10 00:41:16 1988 References: <7735@oberon.USC.EDU> <247@sdrc.UUCP> <930@rmi.UUCP> <61@kenobi.UUCP> <875@nuchat.UUCP> <249@sagpd1.UUCP> Reply-To: craig@Unicus.COM (Craig D. Hubley) Organization: Unicus Software Inc., Toronto, Ont. Lines: 142 *DISCLAIMER ON* OK, if you don't like arguing about vapor then don't read this. But to make an A3000 right, there are some things that Commodore simply has to do to satisfy it's customers and the market. I don't claim to know it all, but anyone on this net could have come up with several good solutions to the A500/A1000/A2000 expansion fiasco, even after the fact, and many of us have, *when it was too late.* So if they go ahead and screw up, fine, but I said my piece. *DISCLAIMER OFF* An A3000 with 68030/68882 running at 20 MHz is a very attractive product, the more so if Motorola actually adopts a SPARC-like Unix binary standard for 680x0 microcomputers: **Use it**, Commodore. Of course, it needs at least 1Kx800 (absolute minimum) noninterlaced output, since we can now buy $900 monitors to display this. It would be nice to have it pump out HDTV as well, if a standard exists by then. Letting all the slots at the video would be great, since the machine has shown itself a strong player in the video world. Don't sell it with a `special' monitor, especially not one with a built-in deinterlacer. If I want a deinterlacer, I'll buy it separately so that I can actually *do* things with it, like deinterlace my 9-foot TV. :-) There are excellent *cheap* monitors around that will do RGB analog at 1000x800 *and more*, and if I buy one I don't want a 640x400 image. Once you're away from NTSC as your maximum resolution, you're away from it. The *ideal* situation would be to get as close as possible, at least in terms of the size of one mode, to the impending HDTV standards, such as they are, so that you could easily support HDTV later the way you did NTSC, with only minor modifications to the machine when the standard is set. Imagine the massive sales to video companies, the networks, etc... I seem to remember the Japanese `standard' is a 5x3 aspect ratio, resolution about 1200x800. This won't be used in Europe or N.A., because it's too big on bandwidth, but the eventual standard will probably be about the same size, only with the signal compressed and decompressed by a smarter TV, including deinterlacing. Now, for my beef: The rumoured expansion bus. If you produce a Zorro III standard (32-bit, access to video, etc.), then it *must* somehow be able to support a Zorro II card, *in* the cage. In order of preference: Zorro III `wrappers' that fit on a Zorro II card, a Zorro II mini-cage that fits into several Zorro III slots, even a Zorro III card that supports a separate Zorro II cage might be acceptable. At the last resort, at least make the Zorro III cage big enough that someone else can make the necessary adapters. Consider the hardware vendors that gave up on the Amiga and Commodore, the users stuck with Zorro-I hardware and two kinds of SOTS boxes, Commodore and A2000 users waiting for Zorro II hardware to show up, the current hardware vendors trying to support three different products through FCC and onto the shelves... it's just stupid to do this again. There's a standard... extend it, don't abandon it! In article <249@sagpd1.UUCP> monty@sagpd1.UUCP (Monty Saine) writes: > That was the good news now fore the not so good news. >The Person giving this very abbreviated demo ( they had a plane to catch in >30 minuites) stated that the Amiga 3000 would contain an 68030, 68882 and >run at 20 Mhz. Sounds ok so far! But the 3000 will NOT be compatable with >2000 cards. Stop and think before you flame on. The 3000 will have a 32 bit >bus and the 2000 has a 16 bit bus. Stop. Think. It is a small thing, technically, to add a $30 piece of metal to your product line, to ensure that your new card cage can accomodate old cards. Commodore didn't do it the first time (Zorro I -> Zorro II), pleading near-insolvency. I accept no such excuses from a company in the black. >get overly excited. The machine appeared to be in an 2000 chassis but the This is a hopeful sign. *FLAME ON* If Commodore produces an A3000 that cannot take Zorro II cards, I will not only not buy it but will actively proselytize against the machine. I will tell everyone who will listen: ``Do not buy this machine. This company has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they do not care about their customers. When they changed Zorro I to Zorro II, they claimed `circumstance', when they changed A1000 expansion connector to A500 connector and Zorro II cage, they claimed `marketing'. Most of us listened to them, and bought Zorro II cages for their A500s and A1000s. Now they have changed in again, claiming `32-bit bus'. Unlike the others, this was a purely technical matter and the solution based on obvious incompetence. The 68030 can retrieve 16-bit data, a 16-bit bus is just half of a 32-bit bus, nobody expected 32-bit performance out of a 16-bit card, but they wanted at least their older expansion gear to work while they bought new ones as they needed them, and they become available. But no, they provided a different bus, without providing a bus adapter to plug in Zorro II cards. Third parties are doing it, but without every dealer carrying them, many users will be tricked into paying big bucks for new 32-bit answering-machine cards and FAX cards, and modem cards and other things that don't have to be 32 bits. Don't buy a machine from this company.'' *FLAME OFF* > This is not the end of the world. The 3000 is targeted to compete >with *SUN* and is to be a parrallel development for the 2000 in a different >market. The 2000 (series) will still be a viable line with the 3000 targeted >at the workstation market. Oh yes the 3000 demo was running workbench 2.0 >and was said to have a non-interlaced display capability in the 1000x800 area. >This is a machine for a DIFFERENT MARKET!!!!! It is not the end of the world, but if it's true, it's the end of my patronage. This is an old IBM-trick, naming everything in the same line but keeping it so incompatible as to require new add-ons and even new software as you upgrade, and charging such outrageous prices for upgrades that you don't know whether they are adding a card or replacing the whole machine. Keeping the software model the same for the A500 to A3000 means much cheap, good, software. Look at the IBM PC line, where people pay big bucks for faster processors to run things in 8088 emulation mode! This is where the money is, folks, in having an upward-compatible line. Marketing is not an excuse for this idiocy. Don't expect the Zorro II card makers to have all their products available on Zorro III overnight, either... if true, this is the stupidest marketing- acceptance move ever seen by man. For a $30 piece of metal, and the common sense to make the cage just a little bigger than a Zorro II cage... sigh. > The key that we all need to remember before we scream is the more >(profitable) markets that Commadore is in, the better is the future growth >for ALL Amiga's. One more thing before I go, the sugggested price for this >machine was in the $4000 range with 2 Megabytes of 32 bit memory. There >was also mention of possible rebates (for those who wish to change market >branches). These guys were VERY non-commital. The display looked great >though. I don't give a shit what's good for Commodore. I'm not a stockholder. If I buy a 2000 and later buy a 3000, I see no reason to abandon my hardware. I can think of many 16-bit perhiperals that would be just as useful on a 32-bit machine. If I *must* abandon them, then I will, but then I'll go shopping for a new machine... After all, I have no hardware investment to protect, have I ? And if my software is Unix, I know it will work anywhere. Wise up, Commodore. That is, if you really sent this joker around telling people that Zorro II won't fit into Zorro III. I hope not. Craig Hubley, Unicus Corporation, Toronto, Ont. craig@Unicus.COM (Internet) {uunet!mnetor, utzoo!utcsri}!unicus!craig (dumb uucp) mnetor!unicus!craig@uunet.uu.net (dumb arpa)