Path: utzoo!mnetor!uunet!oddjob!ncar!boulder!sunybcs!bingvaxu!vu0112 From: vu0112@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Cliff Joslyn) Newsgroups: comp.ai Subject: Re: Free Will & Self Awareness Message-ID: <1179@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu> Date: 6 May 88 17:06:34 GMT References: <770@onion.cs.reading.ac.uk> <1177@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu> <10942@sunybcs.UUCP> <4543@super.upenn.edu> Reply-To: vu0112@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Cliff Joslyn) Distribution: comp Organization: SUNY Binghamton, NY Lines: 88 Keywords: randomness responsibility In article <4543@super.upenn.edu> lloyd@eniac.seas.upenn.edu.UUCP (Lloyd Greenwald) writes: >This is a good point. It seems that some people are associating free will >closely with randomness. Yes, I do so. I think this is a necessary definition. Consider the concept of Freedom in the most general sense. It is opposed by the concept of Determinism. We can say of anything, either it is absolutely determined (it will always do one thing and only one thing), or it is somwhat free (sometimes it will do one thing, other times another). This is so whether we talk of molecules in a box or the actions of an organism. >To me true randomness is as difficult to comprehend >as true free will. I agree. That's because both psychological free will and randomness are cases of my general sense of Freedom. Freedom is a very difficult things to understand. >We can't demonstrate true randomness in present day >computers; von Neumann machines are highly Determined systems. They posess so little Freedom that it is essentially null. This is what they have been designed to do. However, it is easy to demonstrate that von Neumann machines are slightly free. Consider the distribution of bit errors in a cpu or RAM, or of read errors on a disk drive. These are random events. To that extent the computer is Free. This is not especially useful or interesting Freedom, nevertheless it is there. >the closest we can come (to my knowledge) is to generate a string >of numbers which does not repeat itself. This is not possible in a von Neumann machine. >I've heard some mention of true randomness at the >quantum level. See recent (last two years) articles in _Scientific American_ concerning hidden variables theories in QM. As I described in a brevious article, we can think of two cases of randomness, subjective and objective. Subjective randomness is usually equated with ignorance. For example, in Newtonian physics if I had sufficient information about initial conditions I could predict the roll of a die. Objective randomness is your "true", or irreducible, or inherent, or unavoidable randomness. There has been a great debate as to whether quantum uncertainty was subjective or objective. The subjectivists espoused "hidden variables" theories (i.e.: there are determining factors going on, we just don't know them yet, the variables are hidden). These theories can be tested. Recently they have been shown to be false. >Given that current >theories of free will tie it so closely to randomness, it seems necessary to >get a handle on true randomness. In my mind, the critical thing to understand about Freedom is that Freedom is always relative; Determinism is always absolute. What I mean is that when we talk about something being Free, we can always talk about degrees of freedom. A six sided die is more Free than a four sided, a twelve than a six. Or consider a probability distribution: it's Freedom is generally measured by it's entropy, which takes values in the interval [ 0, inf ). In order for the distribution to reach the infinite limit, it must be uniformly distributed over the whole positive real interval. This distribution is not well defined. In other words, we know what it means for something to be completely Determined. I submit that it is not possible for somethings to be completely Free. Absolute Freedom is an infinite limit; absolute determinism is a zero limit. This is obviously true in the realm of human affairs as well. It is easy for me to completely determine your actions: put you in a Skinner box, or straight jacket, or just kill you. And while I espouse Free Will, I do so only in this relative way. In no way can you tell me that you are absolutely free: drug delusions, dreams, illness, epilepsy, all kinds of physical/biological factors come into play which somewhat limit the Freedom of your mind. -- O----------------------------------------------------------------------> | Cliff Joslyn, Cybernetician at Large | Systems Science, SUNY Binghamton, vu0112@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu V All the world is biscuit shaped. . .