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From: leonardr@uxe.cso.uiuc.edu.UUCP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac
Subject: Re: FullWrite on shelves
Message-ID: <46100152@uxe.cso.uiuc.edu>
Date: 18 May 88 14:30:00 GMT
References: <158@amcad.UUCP>
Lines: 115
Nf-ID: #R:amcad.UUCP:158:uxe.cso.uiuc.edu:46100152:000:6745
Nf-From: uxe.cso.uiuc.edu!leonardr    May 18 09:30:00 1988
Posted: Wed May 18 10:30:00 1988


b39756@tansei.cc.u-tokyo.JUNET(Martin J. Duerst) writes in comp.sys.mac

>leonardr@uxe.cso.uiuc.edu (Leonard Rosenthol) writes in comp.sys.mac
>
>>jmunkki@santra.UUCP(Juri Munkki) writes in comp.sys.mac
>>
>>{Lots and Lots Removed (about compression of CODE ressources)}
>>
>>>I would REALLY like to get in touch with the developers of FullWrite. (E-Mail
>>>would be great and TeleFAX is ok...) I'd like to help them internationalize
>>>FullWrite because we need a version with Finnish hyphenation and probably
>>>a Finnish spelling checker too. So, if you know how to contact them, please
>>>tell me how.
>>	Don't hold your breath!!  Unfortunately, do to many things that they had
>>to do to get FullWrite to be FullWrite, they had to do some things that will/do
>>make internationalization VERY difficult (if not impossible!).  I (and others_)
>>had discussions with them relatively early in development about Script Manager
>>compat and the answer was IMPOSSIBLE!!
>
>    I don't belive that exactly. 
>
	Well let me try to explain it to you as best as possible.  In order for
software to be Script Manager compatable, it needs to follow certain guidelines
that Apple has put together.  If if does not follow these guidelines, it may or
may not be compatable depending on how far from the guidelines it differs.
	For example MacWrite is not truly Script manager compatable, but yet you can
do some very simple foriegn word processing without too much difficulty with
it.  MS Word n the other hand is a noted rule-breaker and it shows when trying
to use it with any of the international scripts.

>>	I wish I could get it to work at least 'sort of' with ANY of the Int'l
>>Scripts, but alas, NO!  Not even the draw layer works (but it does work better
>>than the main program!!!)
>
>   Here is an idea that could help to solve a lot of problems with the
>internationalization of FullWrite and many other Word Processors(WP).
>It is very clear that elaborated WP don't use the (new) TextEdit and
>the ScriptManager because their (relative) lack of speed and functionality.
>On the other hand, many users in the US and in many other countries
>would shurely appreciate it if they can use non-roman characters in
>their documents.
>   So why not create a new category of document parts, in the same way as
>may be graphics, tables, headers, footnotes, etc., are part of the
>document. As for graphics, where e.g. Word 3.0.x just lets Quickdraw
>draw a picture on screen or paper without caring about its contents,
>text in non-roman scripts could be treated in a similar way. Instead
>of calling Quickdraw, the WP would call TextEdit.
>As the script depends on the font, it is very easy to
>make this changement between WP code and TE (allmost) transparent.
>Also, speed is not affected for pure Roman-Script users, because in this
>case the only additional check needed is to see wether a font selected
>by the user has script Roman or not.

	Can you say, UGH!!!  First of you no Word Processor would EVER use TextEdit
(New (styled) or otherwise as it is too underpowered to be useful) and secondly
you are making the asssumption that TextEdit is Script Manager compatable.
(Contrary to the docmentation (IMV), the new Styled TE IS NOT compatable - So
says that author of the Script Manager (Mark Davis at Apple))
	What needs to be done is for developers (not matter what they are developing)
be it Word Processors or Math Packages, to follows that internationalization
guidelines, and to use the routines in teh Script manager so that their code
can be used in other countries and in other languages.
 
>   For users that just want to insert small blocks of foreign text, e.g.
>linguists that write an English thesis with foreign-language examples,
>the preformance degradation will not be significant, but the additional
>functionality very, very valuable.
>      (This is, with some tricks, allmost
>       possible in WriteNow (don't know about the other WP). Using a Script
>       Manager compatible draw program, you 'draw' the text you want, then cut
>       and paste it into the document as an inline graphic. Unfortunately,
>       the margin for the inline graphic is too big and blows up the corresp.
>       lines, but I am shure there are ways to correct this.)

	Using the graphic method is not a bad work around in many cases, but what I
have found is that most of the WP's out there will at least allow text Entry
in a foreign script for small items, but later editing can be a PAIN!!

>   As for users with languages like Finish, German, French, etc., where the
>script is the same as for English, and where the main problems are spelling
>and hyphenation, most WP nowadays have two alternative dictionaries for
>British and American English, and if some additional code (for different
>scanning strategies/word endings) is included in these dictionary files
>instead of being built into the WP, it will not be very difficult to
>internationalize these programs.
>      (I'm not considering the economic
>       aspects (how many users are needed to make producing a foreign dictionary
>       profitable) nor the linguistic aspects (spelling checkers are much more
>       difficult for most other languages than for english), but only the
>       software engineering aspects, which seem to be farely simple.)
>
		Ah, but that's the problem!!  You would need specialized code for each
different languae to be implemented in your program on a generalized method
of retrieving such information from the dictionary or associated file. This
is the nice thing with the Script Manager, the program writes ONE program and
it does not matter if it will be used in Kanji, Hebrew or Malayalam.

>This is only an idea, and I don't know if it really works, but if not,
>I would like to hear why not. Also, if any (or many, or all) WP
>companies want to adopt any of the ideas in this article, please
>feel free to do so (the sooner, the better).
>
	It doesn't as discussed above, but thanks for the ideas anyway...

+---------------------------------+-----------------------------------+
+                                 +  Any thing I say may be taken as  +
+   Leonard Rosenthol             +  fact, then again you might decide+
+   President, LazerWare, inc.    +  that it really isn't, so you     +
+                                 +  never know, do you??             +
+   leonardr@uxe.cso.uiuc.edu     +                                   +
+   GEnie:  MACgician             +                                   +
+   Delphi: MACgician             +                                   +
+                                 +                                   +
+---------------------------------+-----------------------------------+