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From: barr@pineapple.bbn.com (Hunter Barr)
Newsgroups: comp.ai
Subject: Re: Human-human communication
Message-ID: <920@papaya.bbn.com>
Date: 8 Jun 88 20:56:21 GMT
References: <32403@linus.UUCP> <238@proxftl.UUCP> <1315@crete.cs.glasgow.ac.uk> <905@papaya.bbn.com> <198@esosun.UUCP>
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In article <198@esosun.UUCP> jackson@esosun.UUCP (Jerry Jackson) writes:
>
>Some obvious examples of things inexpressible in language are:
>
>How to recognize the color red on sight (or any other color)..
>
>How to tell which of two sounds has a higher pitch by listening..
>
>And so on...
>
>--Jerry Jackson


All communication is based on common ground between the communicator
and the audience.  Symbols are established for colors and sounds as
for anything else-- by common experience, i.e., common to both
communicator and audience.  Often the *easiest* way to establish this
common ground, is to attach a symbol to something physical.  For
instance, to put a young gymnast's body in the "memory position" and
say, "There.  That is called 'arching your back.'"  
Or to point to a red object and say, "That object is red."  
Or to play a two notes on piano and say "The second one is higher."

While it is true that most of what happens in our minds (all our acts
of physical perception, emotion, and some of our goal resolution) is
non-linguistic, there is nothing to stop us from attaching linguistic
symbols to any part of it and expressing it in language.  Thus AIers
find the acts of the mind equivalent to (and indistinguishable from)
the manipulation of symbols.  You are mistaken in thinking that
language is unable to deal with non-linguistic phenomena.

I will now express in language:
"How to recognize the color red on sight (or any other color)..":

Find a person who knows the meaning of the word "red."  Ask her to
point out objects which are red, and objects which are not,
distinguishing between them as she goes along.  If you are physically
able to distinguish colors, you will soon get the hang of it.

This is no different from having an English teacher write sentences on
the black-board, distinguishing between those words which are verbs
and those which are not.  That is probably how you learned the meaning
of the English word "verb."

What is the difference between learning the word "red" and learning
the word "verb"?  Surely the latter scenario shows that the concept
"verb" is expressible in language.  It seems to me that we commonly
make use of the word "red" when nothing red is in sight, leading me to
think that lanuage expresses both concepts quite reliably, without
regard to their tangible or otherwise physical existance.

I am experiencing something like this scenario myself these days.  I
just started to study Japanese, and I have yet to pin down *aoi*; as
time goes on I will ask an expert Japanese-speaker to point out
things that fall under that category, and I will eventually get a very
good idea of what is meant by *aoi*. (My current understanding is that
it covers virtually everything which English calls "blue", and
possibly many shades which English calls "green".)

Someone once theorized that over the centuries our understanding of
the Latin color-words may have shifted slightly.  The problem is that
we have no-one whose native language is Latin, who can point to ruddy
objects and say, "Well, this one is not quite *ruber*, but that other
one surely is."  When we translate a piece of Latin text as "He wore a
red cloak," who is to say that an English-speaking eye-witness would
not have called it "orange" or "brown".  I cannot even agree with my
girlfriend which things are purple and which are blue.  This could
never happen with terms like *maior* and *minor*, because there are so
many common objects to keep the distinction clear.

If you feel that I am cheating, try to express something in language
which does *not* fall back on some experience like these.  And please
don't forget to express it where I can read it-- either into my
mailbox, or into this newsgroup.  Thanks for reading and responding--
I love the attention.
                            ______
                            HUNTER