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Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!husc6!uwvax!oddjob!ncar!noao!nud!mcdchg!falkor!heiby
From: heiby@falkor.UUCP (Ron Heiby)
Newsgroups: comp.binaries.ibm.pc.d,news.admin
Subject: Re: No games or picture files for now
Message-ID: <171@falkor.UUCP>
Date: 17 Jun 88 13:00:36 GMT
References: <170@falkor.UUCP> <3973@pasteur.Berkeley.Edu>
Reply-To: heiby@mcdchg.UUCP (Ron Heiby)
Distribution: na
Organization: Luck Dragons, Magic, & Friends
Lines: 90

Craig Browning (browning@cory.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP) writes:
> Preface: Ron, I feel your earlier posting was selfish, saying basically that
> programs you like should be posted and what many want, pictures or games,
> shouldn't. IF a good group is found for pics, you'll grudgingly allow it, but
> if not too bad, that group can just lose out and shut up.
I didn't mean to appear selfish about it.  Although I find many of the
executables posted to the net useful, I wouldn't be heartbroken if the
backbone decided that it just wasn't worth the effort.  You may have noticed
that AT&T has decided not to import pc binaries into the AT&T domain, due
to fears of trojan horses and such.  Many others have been questioning the
cost/benefit ratio for some time.  I don't really think a good group can be
found for pics and don't recall having brought up the subject of a new
group for them, although some have.  I think it's a dumb idea.  I think it
would *have* to go under "rec".  My site would not accept it or pass it.
I think many other sites would do the same.

> and [you didn't mention] getting current listings of all of the files costs a
> lot of money.
I dispute this statement.  Many of the libraries on Cserve are small.  They
tend to have related files in libraries together.  For example, one library
will have files related to MS-DOS communication software.  From what I've
seen, the really big libraries (at least in the well-run fora) have a file
in .ARC format that contains the full description directory for the library.
Often, update files exist, so by downloading a few K, you can find out about
all the files that are new within the last 4 weeks (or so).

> >The reason why people should be asked
> >to pay their own way is so simple that this early in the morning I can't
> >find words simpler than that to explain it. 
> 
> Then why didn't you? You only explained how to minimize the disaster.
Oh, ok.  People should pay their own way because if they don't, then the
people who *are* paying will get sick of it and take more drastic action
than they otherwise might have.  A possible scenario is the cutting of
*all* binary groups because of the expense of transporting games.  Most
businesses on the net have no problem helping people get tools to help
them get their job done.  Many *do* object to paying a lot of money in
phone bills, etc. to help people be entertained.

> 2) you don't answer the fact it would cost us a LOT to get the
> pictures on compuserve,
See above on paying your own way.

> 3) You don't like or play games apparently! Surprise at your position then!
I like to just fine.  I've bought a few in my time.  I think the net as a
whole is prepared to see an end to game postings and an increase in postings
that say something like:  "Send me $5 and I'll send you a floppy with the
latest version of Nethack."

> 4) Sorry for this flaming but ON THIS ISSUE I feel you're not respecting other
> people's desires.
I guess I'm not respecting their desires as much as I'm respecting those of
the people paying the bills.

> >that you obviously don't pay and are not responsible for.
> Wrong! We are a major backbone, and pay through fees, taxes, or whatever for
> this stuff, and distibute it to many people. I don't think we'll be dropping
> UCBJADE like AT&T dropped theirs. In my posting I said we don't pay EXTRA
> which means we don't get a seperate net bill, we do pay though even though we
> wouldn't get a refund of anything if we didn't have the net; after all it's
> not dollars we're spending but machines.
As I said in the article to which you followed up, my boss has asked me to
cut costs.  This makes me personally responsible for the amount of money that
comes out of *HIS* budget for telecommunications and disk drives.  RIGHT NOW,
we need to buy a news 390Meg ESDI disk drive.  If I weren't using something
like 150Meg for current news and sources archives (for the convenience of
others), we could buy a much cheaper drive.  If we don't pay money for other
people to be entertained, there's more money in the budget to buy a new
cpu board to better enable me to support my customers and generate additional
business for my company.  It's not just the costs.  It's the *opportunity*
costs.

> Sounds Darwinian... should the net be limited to it's weakest link? Once again
> I would say you're choosing a selfish solution; just because you only want
> utilities, you'd sooner see all picture and games people lose their files than
> see your one site lose all pc binaries.
I didn't mean to imply that it was just my site.  I meant to imply that it
was *many* sites.

> Perhaps we should seperate the types
> of pc binaries, or at least make comp.pics comp.binaries.pics, to let sites
> choose which groups they want;
That would have to be something more like rec.pics.  Likewise, maybe we
should have rec.games.msdos, rec.games.mac, etc.  It seems to fit better.

> You do good services to the net which are appreciated Ron...
Thanks.
-- 
Ron Heiby, heiby@mcdchg.UUCP	Moderator: comp.newprod & comp.unix
"Failure is one of the basic Freedoms!" The Doctor (in Robots of Death)