Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!lll-winken!netsys!len
From: len@netsys.UUCP (Len Rose)
Newsgroups: news.admin
Subject: Re: The death of USENET
Summary: Personal Attacks Get you *nowhere*
Keywords: Read my lips
Message-ID: <8547@netsys.UUCP>
Date: 15 Jun 88 21:17:33 GMT
References: <3182@charon.unm.edu>
Reply-To: len@netsys.UUCP (Len Rose)
Organization: NetSys,Germantown Md.
Lines: 92

In article <3182@charon.unm.edu> cscbrkac@unmc.UUCP (Lazlo Nibble) whines:

"If your site feels that the {rec,soc,talk} groups are not appropriate for it,
then by all means, your site should feel free to not carry them.  What I (and
presumably others) would object to is the *forced* removal of these groups
across the entire net in one fell swoop."

   What makes you think that others share this opinion? Are you so presumptuous
   as to believe that you represent others? When the weight of all the 
   noise groups brings the whole thing crashing down , you will sit there 
   smugly satisfied that at least no one removed your precious groups..

"The problem is not that the non-comp groups (or non-UNIX groups, for the
ultra-purists out there) are "wasting space," it is that there are sysadmins
out there who are unwilling to take any actions on their own; sysadmins who for
some reason feel they HAVE to carry all the "official" groups on Spaf's list,
and who are not willing to drop a group or class of groups unless the entire
net drops it."

 Oh,you see the problem.. Very kind of you to share it with those of us who
 can't see it ourselves. The crux of the situation is that while certain 
 groups are not considered to be useful,they are part of Usenet,and as such
 should be carried.. Downstream sites have the right to receive as much news
 as they wish. 

"There is a
vocal subclass of sysadmins on the net who constantly complain about all the
difficulties involved in carrying {rec,soc,talk...} but who, even with the
tools at their fingertips to solve the problem, would rather have The Backbone
come riding in on a white horse and make their decisions for them."

   Constantly complain eh? I think you've got something wrong here .. I believe
   that was my first posting on this issue.
   
"I am growing increasingly tired of such people, who haven't got the initiative
to take a few simple steps on their own."

    Maybe some site upstream from you should take some initiative..
    Yes,you are pretty tired.. It does show.
    
"But crying to the net as
a whole and asking (or worse, DEMANDING) that the "offending" groups be taken
away from ALL of us is asshole behavior, pure and simple."  Was there any need to
use language like this?

 I don't believe anyone here has demanded anything. Several people proposed
possible alternatives to a perceived threat to the continued existence of an
extremely valuable medium. You now purport to represent "ALL" of us. This gets
better and better. By your final use of "asshole behaviour" you condemn yourself.

"There are plenty of
sites out there that are still willing to carry a full feed...if enough sites
decide not to carry {soc.foo} then {soc.foo} will die a natural death, and
deservedly so, but dynamiting all but the technical groups and forcing those of
us who want the rest of them to rebuild them from scratch would be an amazing
abuse of power on the part of the backbone."

  Sure,an abuse of power.. Like AT&T's decision to stop pass through mail was
 an incredible abuse of power. I can't imagine someone telling me that I have
 to give everyone in my neighborhood a free ride to work just because I happen
 to drive a passenger van. Then when I balk, I am abusing my power as a van
 driver. They pay the costs,they have the power. Join the real world , if for
 just a microsecond or two and pound this through your rec'd,soc'd,talk'd brain.
 
"The net is a community.  I assume you also *live* in a community.  Do you
complain to your city government about the type of people who you invite to
your parties?  Do you expect your neighborhood association to keep the kinds of
people *you personally don't like associating with* from associating with
others in your neighborhood?  No?  Then why do you expect the net as a whole to
remove the groups that *you personally* don't want to carry?"

 As your maunderings descend to a more personal level, I will reciprocate.
 The principle you expound self righteously cuts both ways. Does one put up
 with graffiti artists and vandals trashing a neighborhood park,forcing it
 to close it's doors because "some" people want to trash it? Does Usenet have
 to die a death by smothering before some people get the message that it is
 not a bbs..

"The decision is *yours*.  Don't expect the rest of the world to make it for
you."

 No.. The decisions don't rest on me,they lie on the people who pay the bills.
 When major companies start withdrawing their resources because of abuse,will 
 you still spew this trash? Maybe you will,but it may not leave the confines
 of your site since there won't be an att,dec,sun,or university willing to 
 pay their money sending it halfway across the world.

 Grow Up.
  

-- 
Len Rose - NetSys,Inc. 301-520-5677 
len@ames.arc.nasa.gov  or {ames,decuac,ihnp4}!netsys!len