Path: utzoo!utgpu!water!watmath!clyde!att!pacbell!lll-tis!helios.ee.lbl.gov!pasteur!ucbvax!bloom-beacon!bingvaxu.UUCP!vu0112 From: vu0112@bingvaxu.UUCP Newsgroups: comp.ai.digest Subject: Re: Philosophy: Critique of Systems Theory Message-ID: <19880724060125.8.NICK@HOWARD-JOHNSONS.LCS.MIT.EDU> Date: 24 Jul 88 06:01:00 GMT Sender: daemon@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU Organization: The Internet Lines: 91 Approved: ailist@ai.ai.mit.edu From: bingvaxu!vu0112@cs.buffalo.edu To: comp-ai-digest@rutgers.edu Path: bingvaxu!vu0112 Newsgroups: comp.ai.digest Subject: Re: Philosophy: Critique of Systems Theory Date: Tue, 19 Jul 88 01:40 EDT References: <19880718040738.0.NICK@HOWARD-JOHNSONS.LCS.MIT.EDU> Reply-To: Cliff Joslyn Organization: SUNY Binghamton, NY Lines: 79 In a previous article, larry@VLSI.JPL.NASA.GOV writes: >Using Gilbert Cockton's references to works critical of systems theory, over >the last month I've spent a few afternoons in the CalTech and UCLA libraries >tracing down those and other criticisms. I'm very sorry to have missed the original discussion. Gilbert: could you re-mail to me? >General Systems Theory was founded by biologist Ludwig von Bertallanfy in >the late '40s. It drew heavily on biology, borrowed from many areas, and >promised a grand unified theory of all the sciences. The newer term is "Systems Science." For example, I study in a Systems Science department (one of a very few in the country), and the International Society for General Systems Research is changing its name to the Int. Soc. for the Systems Sciences. >The ideas gained >momentum till in the early '70s in the "humanics" or "soft sciences" it had >reached fad proportions. Sad but true. >What seems to have happened is that the more optimistic promises of GST >failed and lost it the support of most of its followers. Its more success- >ful ideas were pre-empted by several fields. These include control theory >in engineering, taxonomy of organizations in management, and the origins of >psychosis in social psychology. It should not be lost sight of that "Systems Science" and "Cybernetics" are different views of the same field. They showed the same course of development, especially in Norbert Weiner's career. With the rise of Chaos theory, fractals, connectionism, family therapy, global politics, and so many other things, GST/Cybernetics is implicitly achieving the kinds of results they always claimed. The body of GST work stands as a testament to the vision of those who could see the future of science, even though they couldn't claim a corner for themselves. >For me the main benefit of GST has been a personally satisfactory resolution >of the reduction paradox, which follows. > [ excellent description omitted ] It is a very difficult task to defend the discipline, which I do, because it is not clear that it is a discipline in the traditional sense. While it has a body of knowledge and a variety of specific claims about the world, and especially about dialectical philosopy, it is inherently interdisciplinary. George Klir, one of my teachers, describes it as a "second dimension" of science, studying the similarities of systems across systems types. This in itself is addressing the problem of reduction by talking about systems at different scales. >This is what many physi- >cists have done with the conflict between quantum and wave views of energy. I refere you to an article I am currently reading, by another of my professors, Howard Pattee, "The Complementarity Principle in Biological and Social Structures," in _JOurnal of Social and Bio. Structures_, vol. 1, 1978. >New kinds of systems exhibit synergy: >attributes and abilities not observed in any of their constituent elements. >But where do these attributes/abilities come from? Some Systems Scientists claim emergent phenomena in the traditional sense. Others say that that concept is not necessary, but rather "emergent" phenomena is just a problem of observing at multiple scales. The physical unity of a rock is a physical property of the electrical "synergy" of its constituent atoms. Same for a hurricane, an organism, an economy, or a society, only with different constituents. In dynamical systems it is common for there to be a complex interplay between global and local effects and phenomena. -- O----------------------------------------------------------------------> | Cliff Joslyn, Cybernetician at Large | Systems Science, SUNY Binghamton, vu0112@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu V All the world is biscuit shaped. . .