Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!lll-winken!lll-tis!ames!pasteur!ucbvax!agate!cheryl@tcgould.tn.cornell.edu From: cheryl@tcgould.tn.cornell.edu (cheryl) Newsgroups: comp.society.women Subject: Re: women.wizards Message-ID: <12902@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> Date: 2 Aug 88 16:24:46 GMT References: <12788@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> Sender: usenet@agate.BERKELEY.EDU Organization: Cornell Theory Center, Cornell University, Ithaca NY Lines: 120 Approved: skyler@violet.berkeley.edu (Moderator -- Trish Roberts) Comments-to: comp-women-request@cs.purdue.edu Submissions-to: comp-women@cs.purdue.edu In article <12788@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> skyler@violet.berkeley.edu writes: >The same friend also writes: >An odd thing for me, though, is not understanding the >gender mix that some people encounter. Everywhere that I have worked, there >was a high proportion of women in the technical staff -- or at least it seemed >so to me -- if not in technical management. And of course the first wizards >in the U.S. were women -- the Eniac was basically operated by Navy women in >the pictures I've seen. That is where Grace Hopper and Betty Holberton got >their starts, and I have had the pleasure of working with other women who >started in the early days of Univac. But isn't it interesting that at this time, women were widely employed as "computers" to work out the details of calculating the terms in tables of special functions (cf. Abromowitz and IRENE Stegun, Chandrasekhar and DONNA Elbert and countless other papers in science, mathematics and engineering on which women were either the second author or in the acknowlegments as having helped with the computations...). Even though this work required quite a bit of mathematical background, it was still often considered to be and paid as the mathematical equivalent of typing. As a matter of fact, word processing has progressed in its development in very much the same manner as scientific computing. First, the women do the grunt work when it's grunt work. Then, when the field requires some creativity and significant financial reward (creating a word processing system or a machine to do the details of your ballistics calculations) MEN in fact, take over. How? Why? I don't know. Then, when the glory is no longer there, all the interesting stuff DONE (e.g. WordPerfect ain't gonna get much more perfect and Wizardly Unix Hacking just AIN'T such a big deal any more) it's OK to let women back in. It's not a conspiracy, it just always seems to be the way things work out. >By the way, it was Grace Hopper who first pointed out to me that computing at >home was a nifty activity for women with newborns and infants. This was back >before PCs, but she pointed out that groups of women had banded together in >the Boston area to do part-time programming work in order to be at home too. >I have heard of other groups from time to time. My impression, again, as >for data processing's flexibility generally, is that opportunities for >work-at-home are *greater* in the computer field >though not so prevalent as to be considered a dominant form of work. Flex >time also seems to be more common. Yes, but as a woman who does NOT plan to have kids and who does not give a fig for flex time, how would you like it if people EXPECTED you to revert to part time, simply because of your sex? How would you like it if every time a woman in your field got walked on, rather than sticking up for herself she just suddenly took a real big interest in babies and doing part time work at home? How would you like it if YOU were expected to just LOSE INTEREST in your work except for doing the piece-work at home and of course serving your hubby and kids first? I just don't see that making a lot of things differentially easier for women like this is going to be better for women in the long run. >My wife (with whom there are technophobe >from home. These are always very special arrangements, and they don't always >work out. Also, I think most of them are justified as being temporary and >with a maximum agreed duration, anyhow. The treatment of word processing and >data entry as piecework is inevitable, I think, since there is no usual ... But don't you see that you're advocating the structuring of the workplace to "ACCOMODATE" women in such a way as to create a second line of women's work (piecwork, word processing, data entry, user services, keeping track of the bosses appointments and correspondence with unix, ballistics calculations with a slide rule...)? Why is this kind of patronizing advocacy of a reduced role for women in any new field always cloaked in this false kindness of "oh we want you to be able to spend more times with your kids dear"? I think MEN should be told how NICE it would be if they could do data entry at home while watching the kids, it will be so much easier for you, honey, than that hard engineering that we say that you didn't like in school anyway. And if he argues that he DID like his engineering math and physics and CS classes in college and did quite well in them as a matter of fact, just point out to him how much more time he'll have to spend on those things now that he's been cut back to part time!!! >on-site supervision for verification of work hours and performance. If you >were paying someone to type your thesis out of your sight, would you prefer >to pay by the page or by the hour? I think they should pay physics professors by the number of class hours they actually work, too. And a thesis or a research paper should be paid for based on the cost of the paper and ink, plus minimum wage for the hours of labor that went into it. I think they should dock the president of the united states when he takes a nap. >The opportunity for part-time work in data processing also seems to be very >high. Most of the examples that I hear about are of women who want more >time with family and infants. Also, job sharing between two women each >wanting part-time work is seen. THIS is disgusting. If women regularly MADE enough money at one full-time job to pay for child care, this would not be the case! Since so many MEN are into fatherhood these days, I think that the same kind of exploited labor market slave role should be postulated for all men with children. It's only fair. >I think the male counterpart of this is the >freelance consultant, but the motivation does not seem to be about home life >so much. Except that freelance consultants are paid about 10 times as much per hour than word processing. Why are you making GENDER the basis for distinction between a word processor and a consultant? Do you know what it's like to go into a job with 4 years unix hacking experience and an MS in numerical fluid dynamics and be treated like a goddamned secretary who (gasp!) actually knows how to use the computer? To be treated like someone whos immediate and undeniable skills must be exploited in the most crude and demeaning way possible because "she's just going to get married have kids and want to go part time anyway," someone in whom it's not worth building any "human capital." >I'm not real pleased about these observations. It seems to be how we are >operating, though. Thanks for noticing the ongoing gender stratification of the computer industry. And thanks also for not being pleased.