Path: utzoo!utgpu!attcan!uunet!husc6!psuvax1!rutgers!ucsd!ucbvax!agate!ginsberg@lbl-csam.arpa
From: ginsberg@lbl-csam.arpa (Kylo Ginsberg [csr])
Newsgroups: comp.society.women
Subject: Re: women.wizards
Message-ID: <12940@agate.BERKELEY.EDU>
Date: 3 Aug 88 04:14:52 GMT
References: <12788@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> <12902@agate.BERKELEY.EDU>
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Approved: skyler@violet.berkeley.edu (Moderator -- Trish Roberts)
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In article <12902@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> cheryl@tcgould.tn.cornell.edu (cheryl) writes:
>In article <12788@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> skyler@violet.berkeley.edu writes:
>>The same friend also writes:
>>Also, I think most of them are justified as being temporary and
>>with a maximum agreed duration, anyhow.  The treatment of word processing and
>>data entry as piecework is inevitable, I think, since there is no usual ...
>But don't you see that you're advocating the structuring of the workplace
>to "ACCOMODATE" women in such a way as to create a second line of women's
>work (piecwork, word processing, data entry, user services, keeping track
>of the bosses appointments and correspondence with unix, ballistics calculations
>with a slide rule...)?  Why is this kind of patronizing advocacy of a reduced 
>role for women in any new field always cloaked in this false kindness of
>"oh we want you to be able to spend more times with your kids dear"?  

You haven't included the context of the original posting so I can't
really say, but mightn't you be overinterpreting?  I don't really see
how "friend's" comment advocates gender-segregated workplaces.

>I think MEN should be told how NICE it would be if they could do data entry 
>at home while watching the kids, it will be so much easier for you, honey, than
>that hard engineering that we say that you didn't like in school anyway.  
>And if he argues that he DID like his engineering math and physics and CS 
>classes in college and did quite well in them as a matter of fact, just
>point out to him how much more time he'll have to spend on those things
>now that he's been cut back to part time!!!  

Speaking as someone who is going to be working part-time in the fall,
and staying home as a househusband (houseSO ??), I must say men who are
interested (like women who are interested) _should_ be told about
flex-time possibilities.  I think it is great that alot of men are breaking
out of their stereotyped sex roles and want to stay home with the kids,
and so I think work situations which can accomodate their desires are
desirable.  In telling men (or women) about these possibilities, I _would_
try to avoid your sarcasm and hostility.

>>on-site supervision for verification of work hours and performance.  If you
>>were paying someone to type your thesis out of your sight, would you prefer
>>to pay by the page or by the hour?  
>I think they should pay physics professors by the number of class hours
>they actually work, too.  And a thesis or a research paper should be paid
>for based on the cost of the paper and ink,  plus minimum wage for the
>hours of labor that went into it.  I think they should dock the president
>of the united states when he takes a nap.  

These are, of course, unfair comparisons because the process involved in
generating original lectures and/or original research requires far more
time and skill than the process involved in typing something someone else
has written.  However, your idea about Ronnie's salary is not a bad 
one ....

>>Most of the examples that I hear about are of women who want more
>>time with family and infants.  Also, job sharing between two women each
>>wanting part-time work is seen.  
>THIS  is disgusting.  If women regularly MADE enough money at one full-time
>job to pay for child care, this would not be the case!  Since so many 
>MEN are into fatherhood these days, I think that the same kind of 
>exploited labor market slave role should be postulated for all men with 
>children.  It's only fair.

I assume that a women who wants "more time with family and infants" would
not want to work at "a full-time job to pay for child care," so I
don't really follow you.  Also, in the interests of keeping this sober,
what exactly is an "exploited labor market slave role"?  (More than
3 nouns in a row can get me very confused.)  And how does one "postulate"
one?

>>I think the male counterpart of this is the
>>freelance consultant, but the motivation does not seem to be about home life
>>so much.  
>Except that freelance consultants are paid about 10 times as much per
>hour than word processing.   Why are you making GENDER the basis for 
>distinction between a word processor and a consultant?  Do you know
>what it's like to go into a job with 4 years unix hacking experience
>and an MS in numerical fluid dynamics and be treated like a goddamned
>secretary who (gasp!) actually knows how to use the computer?

You're absolutely right, it is out of line to make gender the basis
of such a distinction.  And I can appreciate your rage over your
mistreatment.  As a male who has (almost) always been treated fairly 
in the workplace, I cannot imagine the frustration, rage, etc that
someone in your position must feel, although I feel sympathetic emotions
hearing about cases such as yours.  Let me just ask then, that,
we consider how best to try to get the situation to change.  Clearly
one potential of this newsgroup is to provide a forum for the discussion
of the problems women face in the computer fields and possible solutions
and responses to those problems.  However, for the group to succeed,
we must attempt to keep the dialogue constructive.  Cheryl, I think
you made a number of really extreme and uncalled for remarks in your
posting.  I don't think expressing your hostility at an audience which
has such potential for addressing these problems is a wise decision.

>>I'm not real pleased about these observations.  It seems to be how we are
>>operating, though.
>Thanks for noticing the ongoing gender stratification of the computer
>industry.  And thanks also for not being pleased.

I also am not pleased, and I just hope that this newsgroup can maintain
a constructive series of dialogues and arguments on these subjects
without veering off into invective.

Thanks and sorry this is so long,
Kylo Ginsberg