Path: utzoo!utgpu!water!watmath!clyde!att!ucbvax!hplabs!pyramid!epimass!jbuck From: jbuck@epimass.EPI.COM (Joe Buck) Newsgroups: comp.mail.uucp Subject: Re: smail wants you to register a domain (using Path: for replies) Message-ID: <2440@epimass.EPI.COM> Date: 30 Aug 88 21:00:16 GMT References: <70@volition.dec.com> <71@volition.dec.com> <935@cbnews.ATT.COM> <44401@beno.seismo.CSS.GOV> <946@cbnews.ATT.COM> <355@bungia.Bungia.MN.ORG> <998@cbnews.ATT.COM> Reply-To: jbuck@epimass.EPI.COM (Joe Buck) Organization: Entropic Processing, Inc., Cupertino, CA Lines: 108 In article <998@cbnews.ATT.COM> mark@cbnews.ATT.COM (Mark Horton) writes: >The UUCP Project provides a number of public services. These services >include the u.* files in the UUCP map and the smail software. We are >run by a group of volunteers, in order to keep our costs down to the >bare minimum. Mark, there are a variety of public services on the net. You call the u.* files and the smail software public services. I agree, they are, and I thank you for providing them. However, there are many public services on the net: the time of the moderators; the news software; tools no one would want to do without, such as rn, patch, compress, etc. I am also thankful for those services. But no one bills me for them. You provided us with a very valuable one-time service; you filed a domain registration for us and worked to see that it got set up properly. For this service, it was appropriate for you to charge a fee, and easy for me to justify it. However, you do not provide significant continuing services; map updates are for the most part done by volunteers whose expenses are not covered by your funds. I cannot justify paying you a continuing fee to my accounting people, and neither can anyone else who is honest with their accounting people. > However, we do have expenses, and we are unable to pay >for these out of our personal pockets. In order to have representation >at necessary meetings, pay for our computer and phone bills, and other >misc expenses, we offered a new service: registration of ARPA domains >for UUCP based organizations. It is neither appropriate nor necessary for the members of the UUCP Zone to pay for your computer and phone bill, or for there even to be a stargate.com machine. Every machine that runs a router and has a complete database has the full set of maps on line. And why is it called "stargate"? The Stargate project, while technically interesting and well-intentioned, just isn't economically feasible when compared to something like UUNET. I also don't see what the value was for us to pay so Lauren Weinstein could go to Usenix. There are many groups of volunteers on the net: people providing software, Internet gateways, public access machines, etc. Only one group expects to have their way paid to go to Usenix. > We set up the UUCP Zone as a network of >UUCP organizations with domains, and set membership dues at $150/year >per organization. (This is a tiny amount, less than $.50/day. By >comparison, CSNET membership dues range from $5000/year to >$30,000/year, and BITNET and ARPANET cost even more.) This is an irrelevant comparison. You do not provide a network; you take care of paperwork, and that's all you do. It's up to individual domain registrants to find an Internet forwarder; that Internet forwarder, not the UUCP Project, provides connectivity to the Internet. It's up to individual sites to line up UUCP neighbors and pay their phone bills. When seismo went away, you people advised me to switch to uunet; you did not inform me that uunet could provide all the services you provide at no additional cost. You just went ahead and billed us. >We've found that there isn't much interest in parks, people are either >unwilling to pay anything at all or they don't see any difference >between $150/year and smaller amounts. We've had several tiny >organizations sign up at the $150/year rate for a 2nd level domain. Mark, you apparently don't understand how accounting departments work in many organizations. I have to justify every payment I request our company to make. There would be no difference between a $150/year and a $50/year bill. And you don't do anything to help people set up domain parks; you just say that if someone DID figure out all the necessary stuff to set one up, you'd add information DESCRIBING the setup for $50/year. Gag. Of course no one wants to do this. To get a PO for ANY amount of money involves hassle and red tape. There isn't a significant amount of difference between $150 and $50/year except for individual consultants. >Now I'm seeing a >backlash we never anticipated: people are telling us that we're evil >commercial moneygrubbers when we're now offering a free service that >was never there before! It's because your fee structure is unjustified, and your policies are actually discouraging domainization. I have no objection to a fee for filing a domain registration. But I don't see why I should pay to get your personal computer fixed (that's what stargate is, in any case). Whether you seek a profit or not, if you're charging fees and providing services, you're a business. Customers don't care about your expenses, your divorce, or your children. They only care about whether the fees are justified for the services rendered. If they aren't, you'll lose them. >Frankly, I wouldn't mind having more time to spend with my children. Then do so. No one is indispensible as a volunteer. >I am not here because I want money (I'm not >getting any) or power, or fame. I'm here to ensure that the community >can send email to itself. If this is REALLY true, then you will not remove map entries that provide significant connectivity to the net based on whether someone has paid you or not. -- - Joe Buck {uunet,ucbvax,pyramid,}!epimass.epi.com!jbuck jbuck@epimass.epi.com Old Arpa mailers: jbuck%epimass.epi.com@uunet.uu.net If you leave your fate in the hands of the gods, don't be surprised if they have a few grins at your expense. - Tom Robbins