Path: utzoo!utgpu!water!watmath!clyde!att!osu-cis!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!mailrus!cornell!uw-beaver!teknowledge-vaxc!sri-unix!garth!smryan
From: smryan@garth.UUCP (Steven Ryan)
Newsgroups: comp.ai
Subject: Re: The Ignorant assumption
Message-ID: <1411@garth.UUCP>
Date: 13 Sep 88 22:35:54 GMT
References: <1369@garth.UUCP> <2346@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu> <1383@garth.UUCP> <372@quintus.UUCP> <1390@garth.UUCP> <388@quintus.UUCP>
Reply-To: smryan@garth.UUCP (Steven Ryan)
Organization: INTERGRAPH (APD) -- Palo Alto, CA
Lines: 34

>>If the universe is one big Turing Machine, unprovable/undecidable things
>>do not exist in reality. Since science only deals with realities (are thoughts
>>real?), it would be complete and still not have to explain transcendental
>>phenomon.
>
>But is there any reason to suppose that the universe _is_ a Turing machine?

I have many reasons not to believe. (I can't believe I said that on comp.ai.
Oh-oh, I can smell the tar bubbling.)

>Ryan seems to have missed the point of my examples from physics and
>biology:  there are *known* classes of events (mutations, electrons
>passing through slits) where the question "why *THIS* event rather than
>another in the same class" is said not to have or require any

I didn't miss the point, I thought my answer was implicit.

WHY an event occurs is an observation from without the system. If the
universe is a TM, reasons are irrelevant. If the universe transcends
formal methods, it might be interesting.

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Talking about ignorant assumptions, some people were presented axiom-free
logics as assumption-free method of understanding life, the universe, and
everything. Assumptions still exist, but they are pushed down to a lower
level: it assumes logic is effective.

We share this planet with people who reject logic as an inherently limited
and ineffective technique. We all know (I hope) formal systems are either
incomplete or inconsistent. Perhaps by using incomplete methods, we have
an incomplete view of world, with the incompleteness folding back on itself
so that we are unable to realise it? Maybe? Maybe not?

Pop quiz: Prove your response.