Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!seismo!sundc!pitstop!sun!amdcad!ames!mailrus!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!osu-cis!n8emr!lwv From: lwv@n8emr.UUCP (Larry W. Virden) Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple Subject: Re: Apple supporting the Apple // line Message-ID: <636@n8emr.UUCP> Date: 16 Sep 88 09:23:14 GMT References: <8809141038.aa07670@SMOKE.BRL.MIL> Reply-To: lwv@n8emr.UUCP (Larry W. Virden) Organization: Ham BBS, 614-457-4227 (1200/2400/19.2 telebit,8N1) Lines: 213 In article <8809141038.aa07670@SMOKE.BRL.MIL> DMG4449@RITVAX.BITNET writes: -->would have just assumed dropped it alltogether. There has been a strong -->rumor circulating for a long time that someone high at Apple (supposodly -->Sculley) has wanted to stop the entire Apple // line. Examples of apple's While I am FAR from the fanatic Apple supporter, and am well known for going off on emotional soapboxes myself, let me at this time play Devil's Advocate - perhaps it will be a refreshing change ;-). For instance, in the above reference, we have a vague rumor that someone thinks that Scully or another high ranking Apple person wants to skuttle the II line. If _I_ were a president of a computer corp and wanted to drop a micro line, I doubt that at the same time I would be pumping the amount of $$ into new research and development that Scully is spending (not just promising!) on the apple II - I mean, after the departure of Jobs, we got a IIe SCSI, a IIe Appletalk, a IIe CD-ROM interface card - all in 2 years! This is MUCH more than we got in 5 yrs before! How much MORE support of the II do you want to see? How about 3 or 4 major updates of Prodos 8 in the last 2 years - you got it (bug fixes/updates). How about Updates to Basic.System? System Disk 3.2 has them - first updates in about 5 or mroe years! You DONT waste money fixing software for machines that you are dropping completely! You sell off inventory. In fact, as you will hear today if you are at AppleFest, Apple is ramping UP production of the IIgs line, since they are outselling their production of the machine, and are ramping up selling of the IIc+ or whatever they are going to call it. -->less adequate support of the // series is the following: ProDOS was being -->developed 1-2 years before it was released, and the project was killed entirely -->at least several times (I had found a beta version of ProDOS about a year -->before it was released, and it was about 80% complete). Supposodly, the -->Apple //gs project had been stopped and started several times as well. On the other hand, Look at MacBasic which was developed and I believe even to the SHRINKWRAP stage for the MAc and was dropped! Look at the numerous laptop versions of the Mac that have started and been dropped! EVERY _good_ computer supplier has projects which they start and stop - LOTS of them. I program for a living. I could not count the number of times I have 'started' a project and been forced due to shifting priorities to move off it, to cancel, reschedule, recancel, etc. the projct. That is the facts of life in a fast moving environment. -->Computer reseller magazines as well as other information sources have confirmed -->the fact that Apple is pushing its dealers around - if they don't push the -->Macintosh, they could get their Apple authorization taken away. This rumor -->has even extended to far as to the fact that Apple reps went to talk to -->members of the ASCII group, a group of computer reseleers that sell Apple -->products, but had just made an agreement with Commodore to sell the Amiga. -->Apple didn't want the Amiga to have any sort of prominant display in the -->store, and made that perfectly clear. That tactic is definetely -->immoral and unprofessional (though I'm sure anyone at Apple will deny -->everything- they always do). One thing I like about IBM is that at least Oh, from this we are to assume that you have talked to EVERYONE at apple so that you have evidence in hand that they all are denying everything? That sure makes it convienient to for a competitor to sink Apple. We just start a rumor which has no basis in the truth at all, then refuse to accept denial of the accused party! Sort of defeats the 'innocent until proven guilty' theories doesnt it? -->they tell you when they are planning to release new machines and the specific -->features they will have. Apple plays this game of no talking until the Yep, IBM sure does - they tell you this stuff years in advance, moving schedules, cancelling projects after you have committed to an unseen project, and then often deliver half what was promised - oh, I guess I am not permitted to do to IBM what you are doing to Apple? -->When Apple had marketted all of its software, it had much more for the Mac- -->intosh than the Apple //. Until very recently, Claris didn't even care Are you sure? That isnt how _I_ remember it. I remember seeing things like Appleworks, Apple Access II, Instant Pascal, Apple Pascal 1.3, Apple Business programs, etc Quite a bit of software - most of which disappeared I will agree after Claris... sigh. But EVERY business is capable of making numerous mistakes - how about promises of an OS which just keep getting delayed, over and over - no, not the GS/os - something called OS/2 ... -->about the Apple // enough. After every single major magazine and important -->person in the // world had spoken out against the treatment of the // users -->by Claris, they bought out Styleware. We shall see how well that works -->out in the future....(for some reason, I'm not very optamistic). The Let's not blame Apple for the decisions made by a now separate group . Though Apple may have SOME say in what claris does, they are legally a separate entity, out from under the 'reins' of the Apple II supports at Apple. And there are several in the higher ranks of Apple. -->technology now exists to make a much more powerful GS- in fact, the technology -->exists to make a machine that will run all Macintosh and // software (though -->it would cut into the Mac or // sales, and they wouldn't want that to happen). Well, gee, there is technology around which would allow the Apple II and Mac to run IBM MVS and VAX VMS software too - should Apple run out and spend 20 billion dollars to develope that as well? Sure, I would like to be able to run mac software. And friends who have Macs would like to run some of the Apple II games (not many, but some). But if you already have more work to do than you can keep up with creating new products and services that both lines are demanding (new hard disks, cd roms, networking, etc) then a line has to be drawn. If that technology exists, then let a 3rd party develop the board for the II and go to Apple and get licensed for the ROMS. THEN, if Apple refuses to license it, go public and accuse Apple with facts - or better yet, attempt to prove a monopoly in court! I have been told 3rd hand that some chip jocks think that a Mac clone board would take about 2-3 yrs to design for the Iigs and be relatively inexpensive to manufacture after the initial chip designs were done. Why not, instead of ragging Apple, we begin to phone folks like Applied Enginneering, and as for a 68030 based Mac III (or whatever it will be called) card for our GS's with transwarp GS speeds... -->a Macintosh would actually buy an Apple // instead. The release of the -->system disk 3.2 - or lack of it, is something else in poor taste. Apple -->has managed to confuse many people with this, and if they have developed -->such a powerful upgrade, they should do anything in their power to distribute -->it. I really doubt it costs much more than $200 for Apple to make the actual Why should apple flood the distribution channels with a stop gap measure of SD 3.2 when SD 4.0 was to be announced during the 3rd week of Sept? What kind of company would we have accused them of being then? Instead, back in May/June, they began to give to commercial developers the beta version of SD 3.2 so that the 8 bit software could be tested and more bugs, etc identified. Next it was released to the development community in July via APDA - the only official channel for such releases. It was NEVER intended for the general populace, since 4.0 was designed to have the fancy manuals, etc and REAL users complain if they have to buy 2 upgrades in a single year. What I do fault Apple in is perhaps an oversight as to how important it was to get the version onto the online services. But for some reason, Apple Legal Evangelists seem to be much more tigher fisted in the Apple II line than in the Mac line. -->it. I really doubt it costs much more than $200 for Apple to make the actual -->GS CPU, especially in the quantity they buy things. With all the money Note that I doubt that it costs too much more than $200 for the Mac+ or maybe even the Mac SE - ALL Apple's CPUs are 'over priced'... -->and the rather high margins that both Apple and the dealers make, they could -->at least provide some decent tech/upgrade service. The upgrade part is In the cases that I have been involved in, if I get bad dealer support, I contact Apple who contacts the dealer and works out the disagreement, after I have made my attempts are resolving the problems. Not much more that Apple can do than that! -->easier...but has been done even worse! The coffee analogy doesnt work here--- -->a bottomless cup of coffee costs about $.60 around here whereas a decent -->computer system costs $3000+ these days. I disagree with this statement. In the $3000 range, one should get much MORE _free coffee_ than with a $.60 cup of coffee! --> -->In case you weren't aware of this, Apple decided to raise the price of -->virtually everything they sell except the Macintosh + (which I'm sure they And except the IIe - which by the way they are STILL listing on their price list, even though the 'smart' thing that they should have done was drop the IIe after the IIgs sales took off the way that they did. Does GM still produce 1975 model cars after a newer model is produced? For THIS many years! -->will stop making soon, and leave the owners forcing to eventually go out -->and get a SE or //). THey have raised their prices up to 35% on everything What IS it that you want from Apple. It sounds like you want, for free, Apple to continue to make and sell every computer that they ever sold. Do you expect this from EVERY manufacturer? I sure cannot go out and buy a 1935 model refrigerator - or a 1965 - or a 1985! Wow, I guess I should really get upset that if I bought a refrigerator in 1985, and if the manufacturer doesnt continue to sell that model along with the 86, 87 88 and the new 89 models... -->me, and it didnt mention the raise in price of the GS specifically (how -->much). The Mac // w/60 mb was raised about $1,500 or so, quite a substancial The IIgs was raised $150 - not bad for 512k of memory. That raise is primarily due to the expense to purchase 256k rams today. All of Apple's pre-contracted DRAMS are sold (well, as far as I have heard, most at least) and they are contracting now for new ones. The old sets cost less than $70 for 256k - currently it costs more than $90. There are other chips which have likewise risen in price. -->They still make lots of money. Well, I guess I've spoken what I've wanted Is this a problem - for apple to make lots of money? I didnt think that Apple was a non-profit organization, oriented towards giving users something for nothing... -->they totally dump the // line. I welcome any opinions of anyone else on -->this subject. I don't have the net address of Keith who works at Apple, -->but could someone make sure that he gets a copy of this (or could he please -->respond to me). Well, you asked for opinions. Above are some of mine. Note that on other days, my opinions and yours sound more alike :-). What it boils down to is that there are emotional responses to corporate entities. The larger the entity, the less 'humane' it feels. What I would suggest is that all of us attempt to make human, rational contact with at least one Apple employee. Discuss our likes and dislikes in a one on one, non confrational environment. Laugh some, cry some, spill our guts some. Dont expect to find out what is coming down the pike, but expect to get back into touch with the old Apple in some ways - the human side of Apple. Don't get discouraged when the black hats occasionally show up to try to tie our 'Nelly' to the railroad tracks. There are quite a few Apple II supporters at Apple, and if we give these folks our support, and help, we can perhaps make more of a difference than just belly-aching. How about a surprising approach by this group at this time? How about a discussion of the POSITIVE steps that Apple owners could take to achieve their desire to see the Apple II sold as a fully functional computer, rather than the little brother of education that many think of it? I will start the ball rolling: 1. Buy Apple stock and attend stock holder meetings. First and foremost, Apple has to be committed to those who 'own' the company. So, if you want change in a company, put your $$ where your mouth is - but LOTS of stock and then VOTE! 2. Write positive suggestions for change to Apple officers and copy the Apple magazines. DONT do this if all you are going to do is gripe - I dont personally want to read a lot more baseless griping in the A+s, etc. of the world. now it is your turns! -- Larry W. Virden 75046,606 (CIS) 674 Falls Place, Reynoldsburg, OH 43068 (614) 864-8817 osu-cis!n8emr!lwv (UUCP) osu-cis!n8emr!lwv@TUT.CIS.OHIO-STATE.EDU (INTERNET) We haven't inherited the world from our parents, but borrowed it from our children.