Path: utzoo!yunexus!geac!syntron!jtsv16!uunet!seismo!sundc!pitstop!sun!amdcad!ames!mailrus!wasatch!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!att!mtunb!dmt
From: dmt@mtunb.ATT.COM (Dave Tutelman)
Newsgroups: comp.binaries.ibm.pc.d
Subject: Re: Source ARCs are inappropriate!
Summary: Wrong!!!
Message-ID: <1314@mtunb.ATT.COM>
Date: 26 Oct 88 12:15:22 GMT
Article-I.D.: mtunb.1314
References: <7119@dasys1.UUCP> <4457@bsu-cs.UUCP> <7194@dasys1.UUCP>
Reply-To: dmt@mtunb.UUCP (Dave Tutelman)
Organization: AT&T Bell Labs - Lincroft, NJ
Lines: 76

OK, I've sat on the sidelines till now, but Tom really got to me
this time....

In article <7194@dasys1.UUCP> tneff@dasys1.UUCP (Tom Neff) writes:
>Several people have objected to my assertion that PC source collections
>should be posted in shell-archive form to a comp.sources.* group rather
>than bundled into ARC "binaries" and UUENCODED into the c.b.i.p.
>newsgroup.  
	I, for one, though not publicly until now.

>The primary objection seems to be that PC users either
>don't have the tools to deal with shar's...
	Like "sh" ?  That's certainly true for the VAST majority of
	PC users.  Do you know where I can get a "sh"-alike for DOS
	for under $100?

	Don't tell me about "unshar" programs that deal with the
	"usual" shar format, unless you're prepared to accept a
	SPECIFICATION AND STANDARDIZATION of the shar format.
	Right now, the DEFINITION of a shar is, I believe, anything
	that can be unpacked by sh and the commonly-available UNIX
	operating system utilities.  I have seen shell archives
	(and even made one or two) that do just a little more, and
	would break a special-purpose unshar program.  But
	they unpack as intended under the UNIX operating system.

>.... or that it's too much like hard work to deal with things that way
>when you could just take the ARC file directly.
	So you propose a return to the "work ethic" of "do it by hand;
	who needs tools!"  What industry did you say you worked in????
	(If you meant something other than this, you didn't say it well.)

By the way, you'd be closer to right if this weren't EXPLICITY a
newsgroup for PC users.  But, facts being facts, it is.

>.....
>PC users have a responsibility to learn something about Usenet before
>crowding into it.  If they don't, they will both damage the net and
>reinforce the mainframe/mini crowd's nastiest prejudices.
	This is an ad-hominem argument tinged with paranoia.  You're
	better than that, Tom.  I was a usenet reader before I was a
	PC user, and I continue to be involved in more than the PC
	newsgroups.  But I can disagree with you STRONGLY on the
	merits of this debate.

>....
>C.b.i.p. should carry only binary executables, fonts, control files and
>such.  Source should be shar'd and posted to comp.sources.*.  

	I have a very practical problem with this.  When I post a program,
	I frequently want to post the source (for those who want to see
	how it's done) and the binary (for those who don't have the
	same compiler I do).  No flames about writing portable programs
	only; I go out of my way to, but some things don't quite port
	and some things have to be tuned for acceptable performance.

	Anyway, the last time I posted such a combination to a source
	group, the moderator followed the rules and broke it into a
	source and a binary posting (in the appropriate DIFFERENT
	newsgroups).  This, of course, (1) broke my file manifest
	and my announcement, and (2) led readers of one group but not
	the other to never see half the posting.
	I had to deal with tons of mail from people wondering where the
	rest of it was.

	Thus I maintain THERE IS A NEED for a newsgroup that accepts
	MIXED SOURCE AND BINARY POSTINGS!  Right now, c.b.i.p. fills
	this need nicely.  Any proposal to do away with source on
	c.b.i.p. MUST DEAL WITH THIS NEED.  Tom's scolding doesn't.

+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|    Dave Tutelman						|
|    Physical - AT&T Bell Labs  -  Lincroft, NJ			|
|    Logical -  ...att!mtunb!dmt				|
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