Path: utzoo!utgpu!water!watmath!clyde!att!rutgers!mit-eddie!killer!vector!nobody From: judy@moray.UUCP (Judy Scheltema) Newsgroups: comp.dcom.telecom Subject: Houston vs SW Bell Message-ID: <619@vector.UUCP> Date: 27 Oct 88 15:41:36 GMT Sender: chip@vector.UUCP Lines: 523 Approved: telecom-request@vector.uucp Subject: Houston sysops/users vs. SW Bell (long) Newsgroups: tx.general Distribution: tx I've gotten quite a few messages about what is happening here in Houston. All sysops of bbs's received certified letters telling them that they would be charged business rates. And I do mean *all* bbs's, not just those who charge a fee and *should* be classified as a business. Southwestern Bell says this will be a state wide tariff change, but meanwhile, I suspect Houston is their test case. I've included below the text from the actual certified letter, the supposed applicable portion of the tariff and updates of how we are trying to fight them. If any of you can make the meeting, please do. For those of you that are out of town, send me a message if you can make it and I will RSVP for you to Reggie Hirsch. Please be aware that Greg Hackney of tness1 & 7 was not even aware of what his employer was trying to do. One of the letters I got was from him wondering what was happening in Houston. It seems the disclaimer I keep seeing in people's signatures applies here. It's something to the effect of: 'My employer is not responsible for my opinions, and I'm not responsible for my employer's opinions.' Judy -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >From To:steve Wed Oct 12 21:23:02 1988 Date: Wed, 12 Oct 88 21:23:02 CST To: nuchat!steve (Steve Nuchia) Subject: SW Bell cont'd Cc: uhnix1!apt (Alan Pfeiffer-Traum), nuchat!shell!stan, mybest!paddock (Steve Paddock), hounix!chuckb, hounix!stevel, sugar!karl (Karl Lehenbauer), splut!jay (Jay Maynard), siswat!buck (Lester Buck) Below is the text of the certified letter being sent out by SW Bell to all known bbs's (probably using my bbslist, the jerks!). ----------------------- To: moray!judy Subject: SW BELL Letter Text Here is the text of the letter I received: The following is the text of a letter sent to me by Southwestern Bell Telephone Company. Similar letters were sent to all sysops of all BBS's in the state of Texas that Southwestern Bell could identify: ------- October 4, 1988 CERTIFIED MAIL RETURN RECEIPT Edward T. Hopper Edited for privacy Houston, Texas Re: (713) 782-5454 Dear Mr. Hopper, It has come to our attention that your account was classified, in error, as residential service. The appropriate classification for bulletin board service providers is *business* and the appropriate business rates apply. We will not back bill you for the past underbilling due to the misclass- ification of your account. However, effective with your next monthly bill dated October 21, 1988, your account will be revised to reflect the appropriate business classification, and your monthly business rate will be $32.85 per month. We apologize for this error and any inconvenience this may have caused. Should you have any questions regarding your account, please call your local service representative on (713) 561-2766. Sincerely, Andrea Prothow Service Representative Marketing Operations ---- The preceding is a transcript of a letter I received today, 10/12/88. Ed Hopper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- President - Texas Division General Exchange Tariff Southwestern Bell Telephone Company Section: 23 Dallas, Texas Sheet: 2 Issued: November 20, 1984 Revision: Original Effective: March 15, 1985 Replacing: RULES AND REGULATIONS APPLYING TO ALL CUSTOMERS' CONTRACTS 3. APPLICATION OF BUSINESS AND RESIDENCE RATES 3.1 Business rates apply at the Following Locations: In offices, stores, factories, and all other places of strictly business nature. In boarding houses (except as noted below), offices of hotels, halls and offices of apartment buildings, quarters occupied by clubs, or lodges, public, private or parochial schools, or colleges, hospitals, libraries, churches, and other similar institutions, except in churches and lodges as specified below. At residence locations when the customer has no regular business telephone and the use of the service either by himself, members of his household or his guests, or parties calling him can be considered as more of a business than a residence nature, which fact might be indicated by advertis- ing, either by business cards, newspapers, handbills, bill- boards, circulars, motion picture screens, or other advertis- ing matter, such as on vehicles, etc., or when such business use is not such as commonly arises and passes over residence telephones during the intervals when, in compliance with the law or established custom, business places are ordinarily closed. At residence locations, when the service is located in a shop, office or other place of business. In college fraternity houses where the members lodge within the house. At any location where the listing of service at that loca- tion indicates a business, trade or profession, except as specified below. 3.2 Residence Rates Apply at the Following Locations: In private residences where business listings are not provided. In private apartments of hotels, rooming houses or boarding houses where service is confined to the customer's use, and elsewhere in rooming and boarding houses where are not advertised as a place of business or which have less than five rooms for roomers or which furnish meals to less than ten boarders, provided business listing are not furnished. In the place of resience of a clergyman, physician, dentist, veterinary surgeon, other medical practitioner, Christian Science practitioner, nurse, midwife, or in their office, provided the office is located in their residence and is not a part of an office building. In any such cases the listing may indicate the customer's profession, but only in connec- tion with an individual name. If listings of firms or partnerships, etc., or additional listings of persons not residing in the same household are desired, business rates apply. In a private stable or garage when strictly a part of a domestic establishment. In churches where the service is not accessible for public partronage, as in pastors' studies. In lodges where there is only occasional use of the service. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- RE: Notice of Meeting October 27,1988 Noon Place: 1980 Post Oak Blvd.#1780 ,Houston,Texas 77056 Phone : 1 713 961 7800 Date: October 6,1988 For: Immediate Distribution all Sysop's State of Texas Origin: Ye Olde Bailey Houston,Texas Data 1 713 520 1569 Southwestern Bell has given notice of their interpretation of a Texas Public Utility regulation which effective 11/1/88 raises all BBS's systems in the State of Texas from a residential to business rate .The result is a double in rates.I asked to see a copy of the announcement and was told that it was internal.I am getting the particular tariff.I am going to hold a lunch,BYOL in my office for concerned users and sysops Thursday October 27,1988 noon 1980 Post Oak Blvd. #1780,Houston,Texas 77056.Please confirm by calling 1 713 961 7800 ask for Sandy. The purpose of the meeting is discuss these events and what course of action to take.Please tell other sysops. Download Tariff.arc and disseminate to your favorite Board.Time is short. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Please note: There has been an overwhelming response to this meeting with 100+ reservations. Reggie is looking for a larger meeting place close to the Galleria area (in case someone doesn't get the word and they have to be directed to the new meeting place from his office.) and will announce it as soon as possible. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- [Misc. messages from the OPUS Echo network] Date: 10-07-88 (22:07) Number: 431 (Echo) To: REGINALD HIRSCH Refer#: NONE From: BARRY MILLER Read: 10-08-88 (14:17) Subj: BBS PHONE RATES Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE > I agree one problem Barry which you can see from our Texas based >boards is that THE PHONE COMPANY has decided all BBSs' should be charge >business rates, effectively doubling most rates.Anybody else in the >country have this issue come up , or are we the first? I hjave not heard of any such a suggestion here in NY but I have been having serious line problems on my system. I am about to start bugginh the phone company here. I'm sure they will come up with some way of making my life more dificult. --- * Via ProEdit 2.8a * QNet 1.03a2: ** Big Apple BBS ** Rockville Centre, NY (516) 536-1546 Date: 10-08-88 (02:07) Number: 2294 To: DOUG BOMBARD Refer#: NONE From: DOUG ANDERSEN Read: 10-08-88 (04:33) Subj: BBS RATES Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Bruce Penny (Sysop of the now defunct Freelancin' Sanctuary and Roundtable) has been working on a lawsuit against SW Bell for some time. The basic premise was that they had been giving different people differnt information about what rates they should be paying for their BBSs for a long time. IN other words, some people were paying residential rates, some commercials rates and some very expensive commercial rates. For a while SW Bell said they would charge data rates for BBSs (their data rate is even higher than commercial rates) but dropped that after a while. Anyway, from what I've heard, SW Bell can raise the rates and I'm not sure a lawsuit will stop them. Apparently SW Bell in Dallas will only charge commercial rates for BBSs that charge users, though SW Bell in Houston intends to charge commercial rates for ALL BBSs. Hopefully I'll be at your meeting along with two or three users from Sanctuary. Maybe there is something we can do. Date: 10-07-88 (18:39) Number: 2289 To: SYSOP Refer#: NONE From: DOUG BOMBARD Read: 10-07-88 (19:37) Subj: CALL TO ARMS Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Reggy , I uploaded tariff.arc and a message to Hal-PC hoping to get some action from their users as well. I too would like to go to your meeting but I might have to stay out the office too long and my boss is also the owner of the company I'm employed with so ...... . Date: 10-07-88 (13:02) Number: 2286 To: SYSOP Refer#: 2283 From: MEL DOUGLASS Read: 10-07-88 (18:18) Subj: CALL TO ARMS Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE have broadcast to all Houston area GT boards; have also echoed to all GT boards at large. Date: 10-07-88 (07:21) Number: 2283 To: MEL DOUGLASS Refer#: 2282 From: SYSOP Read: 10-07-88 (13:02) Subj: CALL TO ARMS Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Great look forward to seeing you, please realy message through GT network. Date: 10-07-88 (03:28) Number: 2282 To: REGINALD HIRSCH Refer#: 2277 From: MEL DOUGLASS Read: 10-08-88 (08:11) Subj: CALL TO ARMS Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Will be at your meeting. I received my telephone call from SW Bell late this afternoon. I asked for a copy of their interpretation and was also told that it was "internal policy interpretation" and NOT AVAILABLE. I asked that the representative at least confirm her telephone call in writing to me which she agreed. I further asked the representative to state on my tel records that I objected and was asking for further clarification of what, in their view, consitituted a BBS vs a computer use of a tel line for non-commercial purposes. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To: moray!judy Subject: More SWBT Here is an update from Reg Hirsh: Date: 10-11-88 (17:11) Number: 7688 To: ALL Refer#: NONE From: REGINALD HIRSCH Read: (N/A) Subj: TARIFF UPDATE Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE OCTOBER 11, 1988 RE: UPDATE OF ACTIVITY FOR: IMMEDIATE DISTRIBUTION OF ALL SYSOP'S STATE OF TEXAS ORIGIN: YE OLD BAILEY, HOUSTON, TEXAS DATA: 1-713-520-1569 This is to advise all concerned individuals that on this date there was a telephone communication with the Texas Public Utili- ties Commission and was I informed that the Commission was aware of Southwestern Bell's decision to reclassify all bulletin boards in the State of Texas from a residential to a business rate. I was further advised that an individual has the right to object to said rate increase by the filing of a formal written complaint. I have ordered by Federal Express today, copies of the various regulations and statutes pertaining to the Texas Public Utilities Commission complaint process. More information will be forthcoming upon receipt of that information. In my conversations with the Texas Public Utilities Commission spokesperson I deter- mined that the single issue of an increase from residential to business rates for bulletin boards in the State of Texas has not been addressed by the Texas Public Utilities Commission before. In addition I learned from the Texas Public Utilities Commission spokesperson that Southwestern Bell may very well treat all individuals who provide "services" as defined by Southwestern Bell to include bulletin boards and amateur radio operators. This is the first time to my knowledge that I had heard that Texas amateur radio operators may also be the receipent of a rate increase made by Southwestern Bell. In addition, the Houston Chronicle has contacted me and other individuals and a story will appear in Wednesday, October 12, 1988 Houston Chronicle newspaper concerning our plight. Finally, a reminder that the notice of meeting is still scheduled for October 27, 1988 at Noon at 1980 Post Oak Boulevard, Suite 1780, Houston, Texas 77056. Please call Sandy to confirm in order that arrangements can be made as space is limited. Phone No. (713) 961-7800. Your distribution to other sysops is appre- ciated. This memo is contained in file marked Tariff2.arc. --------------------------------------------------------------------- [ Actual text from the Houston Chronicle article, October 12, 1988 ] COMPUTER 'BULLETIN' OPERATORS SAY PHONE HIKE WILL CLOSE THEM HOUSTON CHRONICLE OCTOBER 12, 1988 BY RAD SALLEE Some operators of computer "bulletin boards" here, most of whom offer their services for free, say a recent phone company decision to charge them business rates, instead of the residential ones they've paid since 1985, will force many boards to shut down. Most bulletin board operators, or sysops (system operators), are computer hobbyists who offer message exchanges along with helpful advice and free software to members, who use their computers to "talk" over the phone with the sysop's computer. Southwestern Bell Telephone Co. decided to charge bulletin board operators in Texas the business rate of $32.85 a month instead of the $13.35 residential rate after the operator of a for-profit board, who paid the higher rates, complained to the state Public Utility Commission that boards paying residential rates were unfair competition. Spokesman Ken Brasel said Bell is simply rectifying its own error. "We shouldn't have connected these (bulletin boards) at the residential rate to begin with", he said. "When the lines are used to provide a service to others, it is business. Whether for profit or not isn't germane." Brasel noted that churches, government charities and other nonprofit organizations also pay the business rates. Attorney Reginald Hirsch, who runs a board called Ye Old Bailey, says business rates for the above types of user are specified in state regulations, which do not mention bulletin boards. Also, Hirsch says, bulletin board operations and users should have been allowed to file comments with the PUC before the change took effect. Bell is also notifying users of "auto-patch" devices that they must pay business rates. These users typically buy an electronic device called a repeater that provides a link (or "patch") between two-way radios in vehicles and the phone network. Brasel said Bell is not charging commercial rates to persons who simply use a computer to contact other computers by phone or to amateur "ham" radio operators who patch radio messages to their home phone - so long as these calls do not go to outsiders who would not normally use the phone. Brasel said he doubts that business rates would be charged to ham radio operators who patch long-distance radio callers through to their loved ones during disasters such as hurricanes or earthquakes. Brasel said Bell's March 15, 1985, tariff, the PUC document that governs what Bell can charge, says business rates apply "at residences when the customer has no regular business telephone, and the use of the (phone) service can be construed as more of a business than a residence nature." Some local sysops are writing protest letters to Bell and the PUC and are querying fellow operators in other states about phone company policies there. Hirsch says sysops in New York and Wisconsin told him they are charged residential rates. Interest persons will meet at noon October 27 in Hirsch's office, 1980 Post Oak Blvd., Suite 1780, to plan strategy against the change. He estimates Houston may have 800 to 1,000 bulletin boards, with perhaps 10 percent to 15 percent charging a fee and fewer than 5 percent being profitable. [Well overstated, {more like 225} but at least we made the news. J. ] Several local operators said that if all boards must pay the higher rates, they will have to charge membership fees and start keeping records, and some will decide it is just too much trouble. Hirsch estimates he would lose 75 percent to 80 percent of his board's users if forced to cover costs with a fee. Greg Joplin, a field service engineer who runs a Commodore 64 board called The Hip Pocket as a hobby, says he would probably lose 90 percent of his. Joplin says most board users are probably under 18 and could not afford to belong to may fee charging boards. ------------------------------------------------------------------ October 13: Update October 13,1988 Well we have spent the last two days talking to alot of you intereseted folks, PUC, sysops, and users. I believe we are having some success and your help is appreciated. Right now I'm reading the rules, regulations and complaint procedure for the PUC.More information will be coming your way regarding my examination. If you would like a copy of these materials write : Central Library c/o PUC 7800 Shoal Creek Blvd. suite 400n Austin,Texas 78757 I recommend you order the "Substantive Rules" $25.00, and "Rules of Practice and Procedure"4th edition $7.50 and for those zealots the"Public Utility Regulatory Act" amended 9/1/87 $7.50.Cost $42.80 for the three with tax. There are some real tidbits.We will try to get some of this information to you as quickly as my time allows. Many people ask who what can I do.I recommend you do whatever you can,letters are effective and calling is best.The key person for the Public Utility Commission is Ms.Betty Suthard , 1 512 458 0100 at the above address.She is helpful but will suggest you write a complaint.The complaint process has been recieved and the alternatives will be discussed at our October 27,1988 meeting. Ed Hopper is opening a Texas Conference which we will co host and carry here .This conference will be to disseminate additional information and news through out Texas.It has been my hope to get various sysops regardless of software board affiliation to have a joint conference.This may be the beginning of that goal.There are so many issues confronting us we need to subscribe to the philosophy "One for all -- all for one". Ed number is Also I'll be speaking to an Opus/Fido conference of sysops Saturday morning and then head over to Greenspoint mall for a computer show about 11 A.M. if you are in the area I sure be glad to see and talk to you.I'm the skinny Willard Scott look a like for all those who saw the picture in the paper you will get the drift.<>. Well I've got some reading to do so stay tuned and again thanks to every one who has called and left messages. Download Tariff4.arc for this and previous messages. October 9: Update on Activity As you know we are sponsoring a meeting concerning SW Bell intent to charge Business rates to all BBS systems in the State of Texas.Tariff.arc and the main message bases have the details.The net effect is to double rates from residential to business for all BBS's regardless of whether they charge, make a profit,etc.Please upload Tariff.arc to all Texas BBS's, and read files and leave a message regarding smae on your favorite BBS. I have obtained a copy of the actual tariff and you can see that to include BBS's as a business is really stretching it.The meeting will be October 27,1988 Thursday at 1980 Post Oak Blvd.#1780,Houston,Texas at noon, please call Sandy at 713 961 7800 to confirm.The response has been really great and we only released word October 6,1988.Bring your lunch we will provide soft drinks.Stay tuned for later news,right here at Ye Olde Bailey. Second the doors are up and the conferences are up to 29, echoing internationally through Smartnet.Leave a message a receive a response from all over the globe.We need to support these conferences , these message areas need your support.Please note again we have instituted upload/download ratios of 15 to 1, that's downloads to uploads.If you get a note that you can't download that's because you have exceeded the ratio! Finally a special thanks to the following sysop's and Please Support these fine boards: Board Number Sound of Music 1-516-536-8723 ED Hopper 1-713-782-5454 Innovator 1-713-977-1419 Dog House 1-713-422-3146 Abend 1-713-771-2802 Big Boy 1-713-324-3416 Thank you , getting better all the time! <> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Judy Scheltema | uunet!nuchat!moray!judy Houston, Texas | bellcore!texbell!moray!judy