Xref: utzoo comp.sys.amiga:23962 comp.sys.apple:7910 comp.sys.atari.st:11860 comp.sys.cbm:1801 comp.sys.ibm.pc:20224 comp.sys.mac:21508 Path: utzoo!yunexus!geac!syntron!jtsv16!uunet!super!udel!gatech!bloom-beacon!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!osu-cis!att!alberta!calgary!!paquette From: paquette@.ucalgary.ca (Trevor Paquette) Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga,comp.sys.apple,comp.sys.atari.st,comp.sys.cbm,comp.sys.ibm.pc,comp.sys.mac Subject: Mail order blues/guide (LONG) Keywords: IMPORTANT for ALL Message-ID: <55@cs-spool.calgary.UUCP> Date: 11 Oct 88 22:32:22 GMT Article-I.D.: cs-spool.55 Sender: news@calgary.UUCP Followup-To: comp.sys.amiga Lines: 765 This may seem to be over kill by posting to so many newsgroups bit I feel that the material presented is a MUST read for anyone who is about to purchase something via MAIL ORDER. This is mainly for ALL those who have or are thinking about purchasing something from Abel Supply in Sevierville Tenessee. It is also for ANYONE about to make ANY sort of mail order purchase. I give a small but handy guide at the end of the posting for all of you to avid the hassles that I have and am currently going through with Abel Supply. Please spread this message as far as you can. It will help out alot of people. If you do not want to read it at least save it for a friend who might. For those of you who want to skip it, please hit 'n' now. Mail Order Blues or Abel Supply? Hardly. and A Mail Order Users Guide With the personal computer industry starting to reachout to more and more people, the demands for sotfware and hardware for these machines have reached huge propor- tions. Some poeple have taken it upon themselves to make money off of this demand. They have started up what is now called a mail order business. This means exactly what it sounds like. The company puts out ads that state product and price and hope that people will buy from them because they offer a substanial discount over what your local software/hardware dealer can offer. What follows is the events that I have had in dealing with a certain mail order in Tenessee. I am also including what I call a Mail Order Users Guide. It is a short guide to help you along in your purchases from these places. On with the show. I was the proud owner of an Amiga 1000 computer (I say was, because I have since sold it and bought an Amiga 2000) and around the beginning of 1988 was looking around for some memory expansion. I first went to my local dealer, but what he wanted for the memory and what I was willing to give him for it where two VERY different prices. I then started searching through the ads in various computer magazines. I found that the prices being offered by mail order companies were very close to what I was willing to pay and decided to persue the matter futher. While reading messages on a local Amiga BBS some one posted a message about a place called Abel Supply. They offered products at what seemed to be outragously low prices. I called the Abel BBS to get the latest prices and I was very impressed. What now follows is a copy of the letter I sent to the Abel Supply General Manager (I will note here that he is a VERY hard person to get ahold of and seems to want to AVOID talking to customers with complaints, and he NEVER did answer my letter) after MANY months of frustration. The letter explains my problems and the events that followed. Trevor Paquette 3948 Vancouver Cres NW Calgary Ab, Canada T3A 0M1 General Manager On/about March 18, 1988 I called Abel Supply to enquire about the purchasing of some computer memory for my Amiga 1000. I told the salesperson what I wanted and he told me that the items would ship within one week from time my order arrived. On March 22 I sent you an order for the following items: 1 Microbotics Starboard2(1000) 2meg/512k populated 1 Microbotics Starboard2(1000) 2meg/1meg populated 1 Microbotics Starboard2(1000) 2meg/2meg populated 1 Microbotics Multi-Function Module The amount enclosed with the order was $1465.03(US), which included $20(US) shipping and handling via two-day air. Two weeks went by and the items have not arrived. I called to enquire about the staus of my order and I was told it would be shipped out within the week and would arrive a couple of days after that. Again two weeks went by and my order had not arrived. I called to find out what the problem was. The sales person I talked to said he had no record of my order! He then said that you were undergoing a computer change and were in the process of moving the orders from the old system to the new one. I called back about three days later to confirm that you did have a record of my order and I decided to wait a while longer. Another week went by and the order still had not arrived. I called again and was told that a shipment from Microbotics was expected Two more weeks went by and my order had not arrived. I called again and was told that there was a problem in get- ting the memory chips for the boards. I then called another mail-order company by the name of GO-AMIGO and they said that they were recieving orders for the same items and ship- ping them out the same day with NO problems. I called Abel back to find out what the problem was. The person on the phone said that he was unable to answer my question but that he would give my name and phone number to the person in charge of purchasing and he would get back to me. After waiting five days for him to call me I called back asking to talk to him and also to enquire about my order. He was not in and I was told that he would get back to me and that my order should arrive within two weeks. Three weeks later ,on/about May 31, I called again after my order had not arrived yet. I did not uderstand how you can sell something that you cannot deliver within a specified amount of time. I then canceled my order. I was told a refund would take 6-8 weeks. I accepted and started waiting for a refund. On June 15 one of the three memory boards arrived AFTER I had canceled my order. About three days later I recieved a call stating that another of my memory boards was ready to be shipped. I declined and again stated that I wanted a refund, understanding that I would be charged for the 2meg memory board that had arrived, which I decided to keep. I said would still like the Multi-Function Module to be shipped. On June 28 the Multi-Function Module arrived. Today, August 15, I recieved a call staing that my 2meg Starboard2 was ready and that it's price had now gone up. Did I still want it. I told the salesperson that I never placed such an order and that I was expecting a refund from 10 weeks prior. He said he would talk to the accounting dept. about the matter. This situation has gotten totally out of hand. I am now asking for the following in compensation for my refund. Initial money sent $1465.03 less 1 2meg Starboard $ 615.00 (Approximate value at the time the initial order was sent) less 1 Multi-Function $ 97.00 (Approximate value at the time Module the initial order was sent) less Shipping/Handing $ 10.00 (Approximate) incurred -------- $ 743.03 plus slowdown of work $ 100.00 from not having the items mentioned above plus interest on $1465.03 from March 22 to June 22 at 10% monthly. $ 43.95 plus interest on $743 from June 23 to August 15 at 10% monthly $ 14.85 plus phone charges over those five months $ 48.00 (Approximate. It is most likely more) plus loss of money in Canadian-US curreny exchange rate $ 20.00 -------- $ 969.83 I expect to recieve a CASHIERS CHEQUE from you for $969.83(US) before September 6 1988 or my representative lawyer in Tenessee will commence collection action. Trevor Paquette That letter was sent to Abel Supply On August 15th, 1988. Except for one error (the interest should be yearly and not monthly) the letter is correct in dates and events. I feel that I am entitled to the compensation listed for all my troubles. I would also say that I have lost about $200.00 for all my troubles, and I have NOTHING to show for it. I NEVER got any reply back from Mark Woodham (the Gen- eral Manager of Abel Supply) nor did I recieve any phone call. I know that if I was a GM and I recieved a letter like that I would immediatly followup on it. It should point out that something is DEFINATLY wrong with the 'new' system that they have set up. A couple of days after mailing the letter I took the liberty to call my local chapter of the Better Business Bureau here in Calgary. They gave me the number of the closest BBB office in Sevierville Tenessee (where Abel Sup- ply is located) which was in Knoxville. I called the BBB in Knoxville and told them of my situation. The lady on the phone (who was very helpfull and I thank the BBB folks for thier help) went to her files and pulled the one that they have on Abel Supply. What she then told me is something that I did not want to hear. I seems that Abel supply has a list of complaints against them. Oth- ers had fallen in the same situation as myself and reported it to the BBB. She then told me that as far as they knew, Abel Supply had not responded nor taken ANY action to rectify or find out more about any of the complaints against them. Well, September 6th came and went and no cheque arrived. I decied to give them some time in the hopes that the mail may have slowed them down somewhat. I sent my letter by courier in order to give them plently of time to take some sort of action. On Sept 28 I called Abel and asked where my money was. The GM said he did not know what I was talking about but that he would look into the matter and call me on Monday evening. Monday evening arrived and what to my surprise the phone rang and it was Abel Supply. The person on the other end was not the GM but was someone else who was only giving the message that the money would be sent before the week was out. In the mean time I posted the following to USENET to find out if there were any others in the same boat as me. I would like to hear from anyone that has dealt with Abel Supply in Tennesse. I would specifically like to know if you have had any hassels with them and if so have they corrected any problems that you had. I ask this because I am having ALOT of trouble getting certain things straightened out with them. aTdHvAaNnKcSe, Trev ============================================================================= Trevor Paquette - GraphicsLand, U of Calgary[Home of The Great Train Rubbery] UUCP: ...!{ubc-cs,utai,alberta}!calgary!paquette ICBM:51 03 N/114 05 W Luminous beings we are, not this crude matter. *** Don't worry, be happy Here are the responses that I got that say they are satisfied with Abel. ============================================================================== From: hgm%ncsuvx.ncsu.edu%UcEdu.UNCA.AdhocNet.CA (Hal G. Meeks) I have dealt with Abel several times since getting my 2000 a year ago. Their service has steadily improved to the point where I would recommend them to anyone without hesitation. To wit: I ordered a GVP 2000/2 SCSI board from them two weeks ago. This was on a Friday. On monday, I called them to see if my order was okay. They said they were backordered on it and also Arkanoids, which I had also ordered. Thursday I recieved my board. Next Tuesday (yesterday) I recieved Arkanoid. The worst I have ever had to wait was 1 month for a copy of TxEd, but this was 9 months ago. They have gone to a new system since then, and I have been very pleased. Their prices are about the best you are going to find anywhere. And their selection is amazing. --hal hgm@ncsuvx.ncsu.edu ============================================================================== From: kim@uts.amdahl.com (Kim DeVaughn) I've had several orders from Abel. All were S/W, and I had them ship COD. No problems or complaints there. I don't especially care for the way they run their BBS, but that's another story. /kim ============================================================================== From: ubc-cs!uw-beaver!cornell!mailrus!ames!ucsd!sdsu!larryr (Larry Riedel) I have ordered several things from Abel, and have never had a problem yet. Right now I have an Amiga 500 ordered and I haven't got it yet. Hopefully this won't be the beginning of my troubles. Larry ============================================================================== From: ubc-cs!uunet!sugar!ssd (Scott Denham) I've had two go-rounds with Abel supply - 1) I convinced a friend he NEEDED an Amiga. This was about the time the 500's came out - local dealers wouldn't budge on the price, but had plenty of 'em. For 6 weeks, Able was getting some "tommorow" but would not take an order or a deposit. We finally gave up, the 2000 trade-in/buy back deal came up so I bought a 2000 and sold him my 1000. Leading to... 2) Just after that, I ordered $300 worth of software by phone. The stuff showed up in 3 days, no errors, no problems, no fuss. There are a number of folks around Houston who claim to be regular satisified customers of theirs. ============================================================================== From: ubc-cs!uw-beaver!cornell!mailrus!utah-gr!cs.utah.edu!esunix!lhoward (Larry Howard) Sorry, but I've had nothing but good service and help from them. They don't charge my VISA account until they ship an item, and all items in stock when I order are at my house 5 working days later. Sorry to hear you've had troubles with them. Larry Howard ============================================================================== From: Doug_B_Erdely@cup.portal.com I have dealt with Abel so many times I can't remember, I have only had 1 proble m with all the order I have placed. They accidently shipped Telewars instead of Telegames. I called and told them what happend, they shipped the correct title out right away without waiting for the title I had... they told me to send it in when I got a chance!!! That is the only problem that I have ever had! And NOBODY beats (let alone matches) their prices. - Doug - Doug_B_Erdely@Portal.Cup.Com ============================================================================== From: blgardne@esunix.UUCP (Blaine Gardner) Abel Supply has been plenty able in my book. Many moons ago I ordered Facc, Firepower, and Alien Fires from them. One was in stock, the others expected in 2-5 days. They arrived as promised over a week's time. Recently I bought Microfiche Filer and a flickerFixer from them (two seperate orders about 2 weeks apart). The software was in stock, and in my hands within a week. The flickerFixer wasn't in stock. They told me it would be 2-3 days to order it in. I told them to go ahead, and it was in my hands within 10 days. > I ask this because I am having ALOT of trouble getting certain > things straightened out with them. Sorry to hear that, but they've done right by me. -- Blaine Gardner @ Evans & Sutherland 580 Arapeen Drive, SLC, Utah 84108 UUCP Addresses: {ucbvax,allegra,decvax}!decwrl!esunix!blgardne utah-cs!esunix!blgardne usna!esunix!blgardne "Nobody will ever need more than 64K." "Nobody needs multitasking on a PC." ============================================================================== From: sdl@linus.UUCP (Steven D. Litvintchouk) I have ordered the ASDG RAM expansion, and several software titles, from Abel Supply. Everything arrived on time, without any problems or delays. Some orders I placed by voice/phone, others by logging onto their BBS. No problems with either method. Of course, the products I ordered had been in stock and shipping for some time. If you're attempting to order a new product, I strongly advise you not to order it until it's actually in stock. If they won't tell you if it's in stock, shop elsewhere. Steven Litvintchouk MITRE Corporation Burlington Road Bedford, MA 01730 Fone: (617)271-7753 ARPA: sdl@mitre-bedford.arpa UUCP: ...{cbosgd,decvax,genrad,ll-xn,mit-eddie,philabs,utzoo}!linus!sdl "Those who will be able to conquer software will be able to conquer the world." -- Tadahiro Sekimoto, president, NEC Corp. **************************************************************************** And hear are the responses that say they are NOT satis- fied with Abel Supply. ============================================================================== From: ins_adjb%jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu@cunyvm.cuny.edu I have found the following algorithm almost 100% effective when ordering from Abel Supply. #define EQUAL !strcmp OrderingFromAbel(item) amigaware *item; { char answer[BUFSIZ]; if (IsHardware(item)) OrderFromSomewhereElse(item); else { AskFirst("Is it in stock RIGHT NOW?"); Wait(1 << Hold_On_While_I_Check); gets(answer); if (EQUAL(answer, "yes")) Order(item); else OrderFromSomewhereElse(item); } } /* Yes, Abel Supply has the cheapest prices. But they NEVER keep hardware in stock. I have even heard this from the hardware manufacturers themselves. Order from Abel ONLY if you are ordering software and the software is in stock RIGHT NOW. Not "tomorrow". */ -- Dan Barrett ins_adjb@jhunix.UUCP UUCP barrett@cs.jhu.edu (128.220.13.4) ARPA Dept. of Computer Science, Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, MD 21218 ============================================================================== From: meyers@wybbs.UUCP (John Meyers) I don't think Abel is able. I placed an order on an in stock item, and it took 3 months to receive it. When I finally got it, it was in a reused box. (The shipping label was about 5 labels thick, with several other addresses on the others.) The box was quite beat-up. Upon trial of the product, I found that it wouldn't work with 1.2. I specificly ordered the Amiga 500 version of the product. (If there wasn't such a version, they should have said something.) Well, I gave them a call, and they told me that it was my fault that it only came in 1.1 and I shouldn't have ordered it. (You may notice that the lists NOW contain special version information. Funny how they added that after I started raising hell about their questionable procedures.) Finally, they told me I could only get credit and not cash. Well, it is real funny how they "don't have any listing about credit in my account." It scares me to think that this place still has my credit card number on file. A nice place with pretty good prices and EXCELLENT service is Safe Harbor in Wisconsin. 1-800-544-6599, or BBS at (414) 544-6567. I have yet to find better service and support. --- __ , |John Michael Meyers -> meyers@wybbs.UUCP (_/_ / /)) _ _ _ _ | _/(//)/) / / (-'(/(-'/ ' '-,| "Make Mine /| (/""""""""""""""(_/"""""""""" | /-|MIGA!" DISCLAIMER : I have no affiliation with Safe Harbor other than being a person quite impressed with the establishment. ============================================================================== From: ebham%uncecs.edu%UcEdu.UNCA.AdhocNet.CA@Ucnet.UNCA.AdhocNet.CA My recent experience with ABEL SUPPLY has been a nightmare. To answer your question, they are unreliable, tell lies, will not or cannot remedy their errors, and appear to stock NONE of the stuff they advertise. If they have your money, and have not delivered, I would immediately write the Tenessee Attorney General's office, and if the US Mail was used even in part, the fraud division of the US Postal service. At one time, about a year ago, Abel was reliable, but no more. If you revieve other impressions, it would be a service to post a summary to comp.sys.amiga. ============================================================================== From: Ernie Gorrie I have tried to post this to comp.sys.amiga, but I'm not sure if it will take. In an abundance of caution, I am E-Mailing directly to you too. I, too, have been having problems recently with Abel. I ordered some software from them about a year ago and had no problems at all. This time has been a real pain in the patoot. I ordered DPaint II, FACC II, Deluxe Art Parts 1 and 2, FS II, and an AmiGen all in one order, at the beginning of September and specified UPS 2nd day air delivery. I have not received delivery of any of them yet. From what I can figure out, here are some of their problems: 1. They must have few items in stock. They claim that they have shipped the FS II (Sept 14) and the AmiGen (Sept 19). They will ship the other items, "when they are in stock". I don't think any of the listed items should be a special order, do you? 2. They don't have the ability to send orders as a single shipment. In my original order, I asked that they ship everything together. I received E-Mail from the Abel Sysop who advised me that that really was not feasible. He said that they had no way of setting items apart for shipment together. They just check availability of items each day and ship what they have available. If I wanted it to come in a single order, it would wait until one day when they happened to have EVERY item available on the SAME day. (My sense is that hell might freeze over first.) 3. They have very poor customer support these days. I have spent over $30.00 so far in long distance charges trying to find out what is going on with my order. I have left E-Mail enquiries and have not received replies. I have called voice. They have taken my daytime number, presumably to call me back with info. I have not heard back from them. I have even been unable to get the UPS shipping numbers for the items that have been shipped. I can't have UPS trace those items without the shipping numbers and Abel hasn't come through with supplying them to me. The implication of all of this is that what started out to be the cheapest way to order my software is quickly becoming much more expensive. Not only do I not have the items, I have big phone bills and I will have multiple UPS shipping charges. Now here's the kicker....I just ordered a 60 Meg SCSI hard drive system from them! I can't believe myself sometimes. (I can hear you all snickering right now about somebody being born every minute.) -- Ernie Gorrie 9431 McBurney Drive, Richmond, B.C. CANADA, V6Y 3C5 or; ernie@egami.wimsey.bc.ca {ubc-cs,uunet}!van-bc!egami!ernie ============================================================================== From: ihnp4!ihuxy!lapin Trev, My problems with them are as follows: o I was charged twice for a starboard II o They charged me for a peice of software I didn't order I had a lot of problems getting in touch with them to straighten it out, but they did so reasonably quickly once I did. In summary, major hassles, but everything worked out. David Roch lapin@ihuxy.att.com ..!att!ihuxy!lapin ============================================================================== From: ubc-cs!uunet!sugar!emcalc (William M. Schmidt) Trev, I had a terrible time with them a few months ago. I order a Microbotics Mousetime and they immediately debited my Mastercard. When I hadn't heard from them in six weeks I started trying to call them and got a real run around. It was always "it'll go out tommorrow". I finally told them that I was going to have Mastercard cancel the charge. It arrived by overnight mail the next day. The total time elapsed was 12 weeks. Never again. Bill Schmidt ============================================================================== From: whitcomb@unicorn.Berkeley.EDU (Gregg Whitcomb) In article <9578@cup.portal.com>, Doug_B_Erdely@cup.portal.com writes: > > I have dealt with Abel so many times I can't remember, I have only had 1 proble > m with all the order I have placed. They accidently shipped Telewars instead of > Telegames. I called and told them what happend, they shipped the correct title > out right away without waiting for the title I had... they told me to send it > in when I got a chance!!! That is the only problem that I have ever had! > And NOBODY beats (let alone matches) their prices. > > - Doug - > > Doug_B_Erdely@Portal.Cup.Com I had just the opposite experience. I've dealt with them once (and it will probably be the last time). I ordered about 5 items simultaneously (digiview, stand, camera, etc). They didn't have any of the items in stock at the time, and thus the 2-day UPS was almost worthless. Not only that, as soon as a product arrives at their site, they send it off. This of course means that I paid 2-3 times the shipping costs because my 5 item order arrived in 4 packages. Of course, getting a camera by itself is worthless. Not only that, their product list shows an item labelled "ABCD Parallel data switch" which I interpretted to mean "compatible with the Amiga parellel DB25 port"... it wasn't. It was instead, a switchbox for Centronics cables---AACK! I sent it back immediately (about 1 1/2 MONTHS ago) and have not received the correct item yet (on backorder, of course). If you still think that the slightly better prices they offer are worth the risk, I suggest that you confirm that the products are in stock before ordering and double check that what they have in mind are what you want... of course, the ordering people won't know a DB25 connector from a Centronics so good luck. -Gregg Whitcomb BTW, I warned them when I returned the data switch that I'd be sending this message out... it didn't seem to help me get the replacement any faster. ============================================================================== From: nsw@cord.UUCP (Neil Weinstock) Trevor, Well, you're probably not going to want to hear this, but... I ordered a Starboard II 2 meg memory expansion for my A1000, and, to make a very long story short, after about 2 - 3 months, 10-20 lies from Abel, and about 10 long distance calls on my phone bill, I finally got the damned thing. They told me it'd be in the mail in about a week - at least 4 times. It was a MAJOR HASSLE, and I'll NEVER deal with them again. David **************************************************************************** As you can see there are people who like Abel and those who do not. It seems that when ordering from Abel the best message can be summed up as follows. DO NOT ORDER HARDWARE FROM THEM. IF IT IS SOFTWARE, MAKE SURE IT IS IN STOCK AND READY TO SHIP. When Abel can deliver what they sell they do a good job, but when they screw up.. They screw up BAD. Never any middle ground. And it seems they screw up more ofern then not. It is now October 11 and I have not seen nor heard any- thing about my money. I am getting EXTREMLY frustrated (as if I wasnt before..) and am going to write the Tenessee Attorney General's office and tell them of my situation. Hopefully this will get some sort of action going. In the mean time I STRONGLY urge ALL of you to boycott Abel until they do something about their BELOW LOWSTANDARD NON-EXISTANT customer support. They don't seem to care anything about the consumer nor about thier complaints. **************************************************************************** A Users Guide to Mail Order. Before ordering from a mail order company there are a couple of questions that you should ask yourself first. 1. Am I prepared to wait for the item if something goes wrong? In most cases the items that you want ot order is available from your local hardware/software dealer immediatly. Granted it is probably more expensive then the mail order price, but that is what you pay for con- vience. The item is there and you can take it home right away. 2. Can I get a better price from my local dealer? Usually your local dealer can be talked into giving you a better price on an item. And if you and some other peo- ple are looking for the same item you can organize a If you do decide that you want to purchase via mail order make sure that you look around first. There are ALOT of places out there each saying that they are the lowest, and alot saying they will meet or beat any other advertised price. Take advantage of this and shop around. Invest in a few phone calls and do some comparison shopping. Just a side note here. I have one MAJOR complaint against companies the states that only have a 1-800 number for the continental US. WHY? Is there nothing above the 49th parallel? Granted the Canadian market is not a big as the US market, but it is still there just the same. I know I would deal with more companies if they had a 1-800 number that was good in Canada as well as the US. While you are asking about prices from companies you should also ask the following questions to them as well. These questions SHOULD greatly influence your choice on who you want to deal with. (Most of these question are taken without permission from page 112 in the August 1988 issue of Computer Shopper. The page is an ad from the Microcomputer Marketing Council.) 1. How long has the company been in business? 2. Does the company offer technical assistance? 3. Is there a service facility? 4. Are manufacturer's warranties handled through the com- pany? 5. Does the seller have formal return and refund policies? 6. Is there and additional charge for use of credit cards? (This is the one that I hate the most. Companies WANT and NEED your business. To get it they offer the consu- mer a more convient way of purchasing. Why should you pay a penalty to use this form of payment???) 7. Are credit card charges held until time of shipping? (They SHOULD ALWAYS be held until time of shipping) 8. What are the shipping costs for the items ordered? 9. Are there any re-stocking fees? (these fees should NOT apply to you the consumer. This is a general maintenace type fee that the company SHOULD have to pay.) Reputable dealers will answer all these questions without giving you the run around. If they do, do not deal with them. Chances are they are not very reliable. Now that you have decided to deal with a certain busi- ness you should be a specific with them as possible. 1. State as completely and accurately as you can what mer- chandise you want including brand name, model and cata- log number (if possible). 2. Establish that the item is in stock, is READY to ship and confirm the shipping date. 3. Confirm that the price is as advertised. 4. Obtain an order number and identification of the sales representative. 5. Make a record of your order, noting exact price includ- ing shipping and handling, date of order, promised shipping date and the order number. 6. If you can avoid it, NEVER pay with cash, cheque or money order. Use a credit card, it is safer for you in the end. you can always call your credit card company (Visa or whatever) and refuse payment on an item. Using these simple guidlines you can avaoid alot of hassles and headaches that others have gome though. You are a costumer with certain rights and you deserve to be pro- tected. Make sure you exercise these rights and protect yourself. It will save time and money in the end for both you and the mail order business you are dealing with. ============================================================================= Trevor Paquette - GraphicsLand, U of Calgary[Home of The Great Train Rubbery] UUCP: ...!{ubc-cs,utai,alberta}!calgary!paquette ICBM:51 03 N/114 05 W Luminous beings we are, not this crude matter. *** Don't worry, be happy