Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!lll-winken!lll-tis!helios.ee.lbl.gov!pasteur!ucbvax!decwrl!sun!chiba!khb
From: khb%chiba@Sun.COM (Keith Bierman - Sun Tactical Engineering)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.fortran
Subject: Re: Why have FORTRAN 8x at all?
Keywords: FORTRAN PL/I kludge
Message-ID: <75770@sun.uucp>
Date: 2 Nov 88 10:45:56 GMT
References: <388@ubbpc.UUCP> <16187@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> <599@quintus.UUCP> <392@ubbpc.UUCP>
Sender: news@sun.uucp
Reply-To: khb@sun.UUCP (Keith Bierman - Sun Tactical Engineering)
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mountain View
Lines: 64

In article <392@ubbpc.UUCP> wgh@ubbpc.UUCP (William G. Hutchison) writes:
>
>Thanks! Glad to see somebody here thinking with neurons rather than their
>glands! 

Note that the fellow who agrees with you hasn't used fortran for 10
years. If I didn't use my car, I might not care that the engine oil
had been removed. :>

> You understood my point that there is no need to rewrite FORTRAN-77
>code just because somebody proposes a "new, improved" vastly more complex
>"standard".

It should be noted (* sigh *) that the new improved vastly more
complex standard does NOT REQUIRE YOU TO REWRITE YOUR CODE. This is
one of the reasons it is complex and large. NO REWRITING. NONE.


> By the way, here is some more discussion on how Algol-60 was "improved":
>Algol-60 was "improved" to Algol-68 by a committee and the result was an
>embarrassing debacle.

> Algol-60 was really improved by Niklaus Wirth:
> Algol-60 -> Algol-W -> Pascal -> Modula -> Modula 2 -> ... -> ???

Right. Which is why no algol code was portable to -W. Nor was either
usable under Pascal. None of any of them under modula. And again for
modula II. Wirth has contributed much to computer science, but
creating languages suitable for long term development of production
code...I think the record speaks for itself.

> 
>Note that real improvements in language design seem to come from individuals
>or small groups, not large committees!

But committees are responsible for languages being useful to large
groups of people for long periods of time.

It is all right for students to rewrite the codes of yesteryear, this
is exactly what school is all about. It is not reasonable for industry
to act in a similar fashion.

When it comes to pure research, small groups are ideal (note that
Wirth rarely worked along. grad studentor equiv s did the
implementations). When the needs of the many must be weighed there is
no substitute for a committee. This is unfortunate, but it appears to
be true.
>
> More examples of real improvements (by individuals)
>
> BCPL -> B -> C -> C++
>
> Beware of committees of politicians bearing standards!
>

Beware of new wave languages, few endure the test of time.



>P.O. Box 500, M.S. B121		Ancient Simian Proverb, quoted by
>Blue Bell, PA 19424		Sylvanus P. Thompson, in _Calculus Made Easy_


Keith H. Bierman
It's Not My Fault ---- I Voted for Bill & Opus