Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!munnari!murdu!ucsvc!u5565522
From: u5565522@ucsvc.unimelb.edu.au (David Clunie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.nsc.32k
Subject: Re: 32K "do-it-yourself" kits ...
Message-ID: <699@ucsvc.unimelb.edu.au>
Date: 11 Nov 88 08:44:18 GMT
Organization: The University of Melbourne
Lines: 84

It is with much interest that I have read all these passionate neew postings
directed towards producing a high-powered affordable board/system based on
the 32k family.

I too have wanted to do this for years. So much so that I even scrounged
one of those Compupro 32016 boards for my old S100 (non-Compupro) system.
It was easy enough to re-PAL this board to run with the TDS PROMS and put
in the extra chips (ICU,FPU) from the 32016 designers kit - and there you
have it a working board for about $A200 if you already have an S100 system.

But ... and this is a very big but ... who wants to then write there own
assembler, compiler, and operating system !!

Well, I started with a cross-assembler - simple two pass design with yacc
doing all the hard work to try to emulate the "standard" NatSemi syntax, and
got it to the stage of producing the correct byte codes, even in a
relocatable form. Got bogged down on producing COFF format output files
because the documentation in the NS manuals (like all UNix SysV references
to COFF) are a bit vague. Never got around to implementing branch
optimization, though I had an algorithm lined up for it.

The C compiler I am still working on, trying to keep up with revisions in
the ANSI draft standard, and developments in code generator technology.
This is one part of the project I am determined to finish, as it is
intended to be easily retargeted, and hence is generally useful even if
I loose interest in the NS family.

As far as an operating system is concerned there are two real alternatives:
     - Minix - I have previously posted the results of my enquiries into
       who has worked on Minix ports to 32k systems, and will repost them
       if anyone is interested - the bottom line is that there are working
       ports around.

       However - Minix has major limitations - despite a very large amount
       of software of the tool variety available from Minix users, you
       won't be able to get any major applications (WP,database, etc)
       available in source or binary form to run under MINIX as it is
       presently conceived. To my mind, to achieve this on wants binary
       compatibility with an existing commercial system ie. SysV from NS.

     - Unix System V - is available at I understand reltively low cost
       in binary form for various systems. Needless to say none of us are
       going to be able to afford a source licence to write a port to our
       own configuration from scratch. Hence any low cost board we design
       and build is going to have to very accurately emulate something
       that already exists ... point taken ?

Where have I got to ... basically, like many others here I have been
pottering around with the same idea for years ... trying to get a high
powerered 32k family machine and software working at rock-bottom cost.

Why have I persisted ? Well I guess the 32k architecture has this sort of
aesthetic appeal that the Intel and even Motorola families don't. Where
has it got me ? I now far more about writing compilers than I ever knew
possible and am thinking of making a living out of it. Just as well I have
another job ! I still can't sit down at my S100 system and run Unix on a
32016 so I guess I have wasted a lot of time. I have just bought a fast
AT clone to work on my C compiler faster, so I guess I have in some
ways succumbed to the segmented mob.

However I have not given up. If I can be of any assistance to anyone
developing an add in board for the PC using the 32k family that can be
assembled more cheaply than a Definicon or some such board can be bought
then well and good. I really think this is the way to go. Why ? Because
everyone needs a working development system NOW, not when they have finished
designing a new board. In other words everyone has a PC or a Mac. It is
too difficult to add to the Mac, and it costs to much for everyone to go
out and by another box,psu,hard drive,terminal etc. There is no other
way, it would seem to me.

Is it feasible ? There are several commercial products avaiable in a PC
add-in form. These use lots of gate arrays and have the facility to add
lots of on board 32bit bus memory. They run Unix with the host PC playing
IO processor. Are they any good ? I don't know I can't afford one. Can we
produce a cheaper, do it yourself kit ? Maybe - but I would suggest a careful
analysis of wherein the cost of these boards lie - it may be that there is
just so much glue hardware, plus the chip cost, plus fabrication of a
multilayer PC board, plus memory in large quantities - that we may not
be able to do it any cheaper.

Well - enough. I don't want to seem pessimistic, but one has to face reality.
Happy to be of service to anyone who needs it ...

    Regards ... David