Xref: utzoo news.misc:2025 soc.culture.jewish:8267 Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!husc6!mailrus!uflorida!gatech!galbp!wittsend.LBP.HARRIS.COM!mhw From: mhw@wittsend.LBP.HARRIS.COM (Michael H. Warfield (Mike)) Newsgroups: news.misc,soc.culture.jewish Subject: Re: RACIST JOKES Message-ID: <6535@galbp.LBP.HARRIS.COM> Date: 22 Nov 88 20:21:27 GMT References: <8030@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> <1058@osupyr.mast.ohio-state.edu> <1060@osupyr.mast.ohio-state.edu> <1057@osupyr.mast.ohio-state.edu> <1223@fig.bbn.com> <666@fcs280s.ncifcrf.gov> <8052@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> Sender: news@galbp.LBP.HARRIS.COM Reply-To: mhw@wittsend.UUCP (Michael H. Warfield (Mike)) Distribution: na Organization: Harris/Lanier Network Knitting Circle Lines: 106 In article <8052@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> richmond@athena.mit.edu (Jonathan E. D. Richmond) writes: >Let me start by saying I wholeheartedly agree with Melinda Shore >and Nancy Gould. Both speak to our need to eliminate hatred from >our midst, and that is crucial. Hold the phone! Who said one damn thing about hatred. I enjoy ethnic humor (note I did not say racist) even when I'm the target, if it's in good tasted and FUNNY! Certainly, as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, humor is in the mind of the reader. I hold no hatred or even dislike in any way shape or form for any ethnic group, religion, race, or sex. I don't think very highly of those who can't look at themselves and laugh, whatever their persuasion. Some of the funniest polack jokes I've ever heard came from some polish friends and my "little brother" in my fraternity, who just happended to be both handicapped and black, could tell racist jokes that could spin your head (he even had a "KKK" honorary membership card). We all had good times and the idea of the jokes having anything to do with hatred is pure unadulterated BULLSHIT! Jokes certainly should take into account the receiving audience. That's what we have warnings in subject lines and "ROT13" for. So someone with sensitive eyes needn't disturb his self esteem by viewing something he feels is offensive. Anyone who reads the warning and then even de-rots the thing inspite of his feelings has a problem. How to you spell masochist? Or does that offend the mentally ill? >On the question of racist jokes, maybe posters of these items >consider they have First Amendment protection. But do the people who >are victims of these jokes have no rights, too? I find it very >interesting that Rich Salz believes I am "intimidating" Brad Templeton >by saying up front that I am considering further action on this matter. That's interesting. I've never heard of the right not to be made fun of. Boy can I start up some lively lawsuits against the perpetrators of some practical (and some not so pratical) jokes. I have had as many people get a laugh at my expense as I at theirs. Around here, when it comes to jokes, paybacks are hell. If you don't want to be a target, you don't aim the weapon but if your hit you've earned the right to a return salvo. >So I am saying that Brad Templeton should have the *judgement* to >avoid racist humor. If he lacks it, then he must recognize >my right to freely express my disapporval. Let's see you try to define the limits you want to impose upon Brad that doesn't either eliminate humor all together or is so arbitrary as to be capricious. Certainly you have the right to disaprove just as you have the right not to read it in the first place. What's the problem, don't you have the judgement to avoid something when the subject line clearly indicates that you might be offended? >Some people question whether racist humor really is damaging. Answers >have already been given to this, but I'll reiterate that racist jokes >were very popular in Nazi Germany and were used to stereotype Jews, >and by making them seem less human, made their persecution more >acceptable by society. What has this got to do with the price of tea in china??????? If I tell a sexist joke does that label me a Nazi. Censorship and restriction of personal freedoms were also rather popular back then. Sounds a lot closer to what you're proposing than what Brad puts out! >Should they not be upset, and do they not deserve restraint on the >part of a moderator? Can't we let the bigots stick to rec.humor, >and count on a moderator to exclude racial malice from rec.humor.funny? Say what? Maybe I've just skipped over the articles that don't fit my taste but I haven't seen anything in there which comes under the heading of "racial malice". I think maybe malice is also in the mind of the beholder. Take a good look in a mirror sometime. >..... All such humor serves to degrade its subjects and >propagate persecution against them. I am well aware of this, since >my current research is in the area of Metaphor (seeing how we see >things and using this to account for social understandings), and I >have been doing work in Watts, the black urban ghetto of Los Angeles. Hmmmmmm. Doing work as an unbiased neutral observer to establish new independent research or going in with a preconceived view of the world and bent on proving some pet theory. Plenty of perfectly good researchers in both camps out there. I don't find jokes about me degrading as long as I get the return match. >It really comes down to a matter of decency and judgement. So, >instead of crying "censorship!" how about putting yourself in the >position of someone victimized by a racist joke, someone who knows >history, and knows all too well how racial stereotyping embodied in >such humor leads to predudice, lynchings, and even attempts at >racial extermination. Sorry doesn't wash, not in the least. No proof no way no where that there is a causal connection leading from the telling of jokes to racial extermination. One could argue, to the contrary, that telling jokes and laughing at each other and our selfs should ease the absurd tension which separates too many of us. And yes I have been the subject of jokes, cruel and otherwise. Jokes is jokes and cruel jokes hurt whether they're racist, religious, sexist, ethnic, or just plan dumb. You want to argue against cruel jokes - argue away, you won't get any farther with that than against racist jokes. But don't fool yourself into thinking racist jokes are the only cruel jokes around or even that all ethnic jokes are cruel. Your view is too narrow and on the wrong angle entirely. --- Michael H. Warfield (The Mad Wizard) | gatech.edu!galbp!wittsend!mhw (404) 270-2123 / 270-2098 | mhw@wittsend.LBP.HARRIS.COM An optimist believes we live in the best of all possible worlds. A pessimist is sure of it!