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From: matloff@bizet.Berkeley.EDU (Norman Matloff)
Newsgroups: comp.edu,sci.math,sci.physics
Subject: Re: Student and Course Integrity
Message-ID: <18237@agate.BERKELEY.EDU>
Date: 13 Dec 88 20:17:20 GMT
References: <15759@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu>
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Reply-To: matloff@iris.ucdavis.edu (Norm Matloff)
Organization: EECS, UC Davis
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In article <15759@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu> bobmon@iuvax.UUCP (RAMontante) writes:

>>As I said, UC does this too, and a number of other state schools that I
>>am aware of do this, but it is contrary to the public interest, because
>>it selects for the RICH foreign students rather than for the SMART
>>foreign students.

>I really don't think this is a concern.  The best (foreign) students are
>also coming here, getting scholarships in their own countries (and some
>financial aid here, too, in the form of teaching positions and the
>like).  

Not true, in most cases.  The bulk of the foreign students, even the
best ones, are NOT supported by their home countries.  In fact, those
who come here under a J-1 visa (e.g. China, Israel) tend to refuse
support from their government even if it is offered, because U.S.
law stipulates that if they accept such support, they MUST return
home after graduation  --  which is contrary to their goal of getting
a U.S. company to sponsor them for American immigration.

>Beating on this some more, the problem of American colleges in the past
>few years has been too few applicants (especially Americans).  The "rich
>foreigners" aren't taking slots away from anyone who could make any use

If you reread my postings, you'll see that I basically agree with this.
There just aren't enough Americans interested in gard school.

However, the comment on the "rich" ones had to do with someone (you,
I think) suggesting that since political considerations, e.g. state
legislatures, dictate that some way be devised to limit the number of
foreign students at state schools, that the way to do it be to charge
higher tuition.  I'm saying that this is not the way to do it, because
rich != smart.

>who've been educated in the U.S. are less likely to think of the U.S.A.
>as a monolithic "Great Satan".

Good point, but entirely wasted, since the majority don't back to their
home countries.

According to TIME magazine, over 90% of the students from Taiwan (which
has by far the largest contingent of foreign students in the U.S.) do
not return to Taiwan after graduation.  For engineering (including CS)
this figure is very close to 100%.

Among the foreign students we've had in our CS grad program here at
Davis:  NONE of the Taiwan students has returned; NONE of the PRC
students has returned; only ONE of the Hong Kong students has returned;
NONE of the students from India has returned.  [These countries comprise 
almost all the foreign students.]

>You're agreeing with me here.  Why aren't the Americans inspired to work
>as hard for that better job?  (I'm not sure they aren't; but the U.S.

There's a definite problem with the anti-intellectual attitude which
prevails in the U.S.  I agree completely.  I post a lot in the newsgroup
soc.culture.china, and I have mentioned there the following "Far Side"
cartoon:

   There is a picture of a school, with a sign in front saying "School
   for the Gifted."  An extremely nerdy-looking kid has just climbed
   the steps to the front door.  The door has a sign saying "Pull" on
   it, and the kid is PUSHING with all his might to try to open the
   door.  :-)

My DEPARTMENT CHAIRPERSON laughed uncontrollably at that cartoon  --
but you would NEVER find such a "laugh-at-the-eggheads,-who-totally-
lack-common-sense" cartoon in Asia.

But getting back to the question of the "better job", it turns out
that the Americans DO work hard for that better job (I'm talking
mainly about the Silicon Valley, where I have the most information).
There are a lot of people in the Silicon Valley who weren't willing
to "walk that extra mile" when they were students, but did have a
lot of intellectual curiosity, and really blossomed once they got 
into the industry.

And what is also interesting is that they frequently surpass the
foreign students (now immigrants) in the work environment, due to
the Asian system of rote-memorization-based education which leaves
them with a severe lack of insight.  [I'll add more on that if anyone 
is interested.]

>two....  But hey, I got the right continental shelf!  :-)

This :-) and those that followed it were much appreciated, thanks.

   Norm