Xref: utzoo comp.dcom.modems:3134 news.admin:4443 Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!lll-winken!lll-lcc!ames!mailrus!uflorida!gatech!mcdchg!ddsw1!karl From: karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) Newsgroups: comp.dcom.modems,news.admin Subject: Re: FYI -- PC-P Price "Increase" Summary: PCP -- A second-class service at first-class prices? Message-ID: <2625@ddsw1.MCS.COM> Date: 3 Jan 89 15:15:51 GMT References: <8901012214.AA25093@amon-re.cs.odu.edu> <437@marob.MASA.COM> Reply-To: karl@ddsw1.UUCP (Karl Denninger) Organization: Macro Computer Solutions, Inc., Mundelein, IL Lines: 133 (This is being xposted to news.admin due to the number of sites that move Usenet news via PC Persuit at the present time). In article <437@marob.MASA.COM> cabreu@marob.masa.com (Carlos Cabreu) writes: >In article <8901012214.AA25093@amon-re.cs.odu.edu> tadguy@cs.odu.edu (Tad Guy) >writes: > >>Sorry, I don't buy that reasoning. The contract we all got with our >>PC Pursuit accounts was clear that it was an unlimited service. The >>advertising I saw used the fact that it was an unlimited service as a >>selling point. > >Well, years ago when TELENET introduced its PC-Pursuit product they were >looking to make money during the off-peak hours when their network was almost >completely idle. I don't believe that they ever expected it to turn into >the behemoth-brute-thing it is now. They are still making money off their PC Persuit service I'd bet -- but now they want to make more money -- a whole lot more. If thousands of people do the analysis I've done, though, they may lose all their subscribers instead and be back to where they were before PC Persuit at night (fixed leased lines cost $, regardless of use!) :-) >>I don't think it is fair to blame USENET and other "heavy" users for >>TELENET's change in policy. We (yes, I admit to being a heavy PC >>Pursuit user) were working within PC Pursuit's rules. Perhaps they >>should have done a little better research, or had written in a ceiling >>in the original contract? > >It's more than a change in "policy." It's a change in pricing structure. >It's foolish to think that their apparent "altruism" would last forever. >Telenet has saved me untold sums over the years and I'm grateful for that. >Even their new pricing is substantially better than Ma Bell's. Not if you have more than a 1200 baud modem it isn't. Tell you what -- let's look: $30.00 - First 30 hours, plus LOCAL CHARGES. 4.50 - Per hour after 30, up to 60. ???? - No idea what it is after 60 hours. Note the important LOCAL CHARGES point. Here it costs me $3.00/hour or so to call the Telenet node (since Telenet two years and change ago moved ALL their indial ports to downtown Chicago from suburban locations! I used to have a Telenet indial port 5 miles from here; no longer. Now it's a timed call.) So, what we have here (and only for the first 30 hours) is: 3.00 + 1.00 - $4.00/hour on PC Persuit, 7.75 - $7.75 an hour on AT&T direct-dial (+/- $1/hour) Note that the AT&T long distance (or anyone else's) includes that nasty nickle-a-minute charge that the local operating company gets us for, while Telenet's service doesn't (they don't collect it either, but I still pay it!) The PC Persuit service looks like a little better deal.... until you figure these numbers into the picture: Average Transfer rate PCP Direct Dial (in cps) ~90cps ~1100cps Telebit modem, PEP mode ~90cps ~220cps 2400-baud garden-variety modem This ~90cps REAL throughput is what we get on uucp, regardless of whether it's a 1200 or 2400 baud originating (and answering) call. The bottleneck is due to the round-trip ACK delays -- even with windows=7 you hit the wall at 2400 baud. Xmodem or Kermit get even worse throughput (less than half UUCP!) The _only_ protocol which gets reasonable throughput is Zmodem, and only if the connection is clean (errors force retransmission of more material, again due to the delays). Now, which method do you think I will use to move my news and mail traffic if I'm paying for it out of my own pocket? Which way would you think I would counsel people to use for their own private BBSing (remember, people download too -- which is a file transfer where throughput is VERY important)? For anyone doing more than 30 hours now on PC Persuit, it makes even less sense to continue to use it. I'll grant you that for a 1200 baud modem owner, or (heaven forbid) 300 baud, PC Persuit looks good. But 2400-baud modems are commonplace these days -- they can be had for under $200. >I've always had the feeling that PC-Pursuit customers were treated like >second-rate citizens (for $25.00 a month -- you get what you pay for.) >The thing to look forward to is improved service from Telenet. They'd >be unwise not to re-invest money after the price hike to improve service. We have always been treated like second-rate citizens. When I have had problems with their gear dropping the line (in the middle of a call, unprovoked!) they simply said "oh well, we'll look into it". Even an offer of active assistance (ie: you tell me when, I'll initiate a call and you watch for what goes wrong) was refused. Then there were the security problems -- people could attach to your indial port (and spoof you while typing your password!). They finally fixed that (or claimed they did; I never knew how the crackers were doing it so I couldn't verify that.) Remember the horrid problems with billed usage (like calls when there was no physical means for them to have been made) when they finally got their billing computer working? (Working? Well, almost.) Telenet also took advantage of the PC Persuit subscriber base in their quest to block the recent FCC action -- regardless of how you slice it, without PC Persuit there would NOT have been that massive letter campaign to the FCC offices and Congresspersons! If the letter campaign had not succeeded, PC Persuit >AND< Telenet's bread-and-butter daytime service would have been more expensive to use than direct dial -- even during the daytime hours! I think it's fair to say that Telenet did manipulate their PC Persuit subscriber base -- most of who (hopefully) will now realize that (1) they've been taken advantage of, and (2) that AT&T or MCI is cheaper to use than PC Persuit on a $-per-byte-moved basis. I won't argue with the fact that some people are (and were) using PC Persuit in rather "odd" ways. I wouldn't consider Usenet and Fido feeds to be "odd", as Telenet has officially said "that's fine". The DDialers who leave connections open all weekend may be another matter; I've seen this too. But DDials are ALL 300 baud -- how much congestion on PC Persuit is on the 300 baud outdials? (Answer: NONE. It's all at 1200 and 2400 baud). PC Persuit is a second-class service, yes. I didn't mind it when we were considered second-class but had second-class costs. Now that they're more expensive per byte moved than any other calling method I'm gonna drop 'em, and I suggest that ALL their subscribers do the same. -- Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, ddsw1!karl) Data: [+1 312 566-8912], Voice: [+1 312 566-8910] Macro Computer Solutions, Inc. "Quality solutions at a fair price"