Path: utzoo!utgpu!watmath!clyde!att!rutgers!bellcore!geppetto!duncan
From: duncan@geppetto.ctt.bellcore.com (Scott Duncan)
Newsgroups: comp.edu
Subject: Re: Student preparedness
Message-ID: <13201@bellcore.bellcore.com>
Date: 5 Jan 89 11:43:36 GMT
References: <4893@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> <6435@killer.DALLAS.TX.US> <5237@pdn.UUCP> <2145@faline.bellcore.com> <13160@bellcore.bellcore.com> <5268@pdn.UUCP>
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Reply-To: duncan@ctt.bellcore.com (Scott Duncan)
Organization: Computer Technology Transfer, Bellcore
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In article <5268@pdn.UUCP> reggie@pdn.UUCP (George W. Leach) writes:
>                                       I have only taught in the evenings,
>so the make up of the class is a bit different.

My experiences are from full-time 4-year college (English) and evening or
weekend classes at community college (computer science).

>                                                 Most students are part time
>and work.  They are a bit more serious about the course than the average
>full time student.

I will echo this in either teaching case above.  Those who have come back to
school after being away were more conscientious -- no 'smarter,' but they
cared more and worked harder.

>                    Perhaps this is because they need a good grade to get
>reimbursed for the course or they are paying their own way.

This seemed to be true also; however, in the community college case, I had
people from industry who's reason for a good grade (an A or nothing) was that
their boss didn't consider a community college course somehow respectable and
only an A meant anything.  (In my case, the regular faculty and program at the
community college -- Mercer County in NJ -- were quite good and prepared folks
for the real world -- or to go on to a four-year school.  Some of the best
workers we had -- at a former job -- were from Mercer County.  The Master's
folks hired were often perfectionistic theorists who had a tough time engineer-
ing a product.)

>                                                             In any event,
>in an average class (30->35 students) I think there are more people who
>would ask such questions than in a day time class.  Perhaps part of the
>reason is that often many who teach at night also work during the day in
>industry.

I think this is the issue:  the older student with some work experience just
has a different attitude about working, studying, showing enthusiasm for a
class.  For example, one full-time student who was in a night class told me
they "knew how to program" and were just taking this course to get another
programming language requirement.  Well, they thought they were hot stuff and
handed in the 8 projects two weeks after I handed them all out.  Four of the
eight were absolutely wrong -- these were simple problems in BASIC (yes, I have
taught BASIC!).  Other full-time people with recent language and programming
classes had a similar attitude while the more humble working folks (even with
programming experience) took their time and didn't try to 'show off.'

>           Often a professor is looked upon in awe by the average undergrad.

I don't think it's awe so much.  In the experiences I had, there was this ex-
pectation that I (and others) were there to dispense what the student needed
to get throughm get the grade, and move on with the program.  If we deviated
from that expectation, there was everything from mild shock to hostility (and
the latter often from the hotshots like I describe above who seemed to be look-
ing for a 'gut' course).

>-- 
>George W. Leach					Paradyne Corporation

And just so this won't sound like a total slam at students, I must point out
that I had good and bad ones just like there were times when I was a good or
bad instructor.  But what made things bearable was when we (the student and I)
accepted this fact.  I found poorer students VERY UNWILLING to deal with the
unexpected in a course and try to work it out.  They paid their money; they
wanted their grade; the instructors owed it to them to be sure they got the
grade.

What seemed to be the biggest problem was suggesting study habits to people
who clearly had problems.  It was almost trated like an invasion of privacy to
suggest that students try writing a paper or a program or preparing for a test
according to some scheme that included doing these things in stages, ahead of
time.  Everyone can write English and anyone can program seemed to be the view
of many in undergraduate composition and introductory CS.

Speaking only for myself, of course, I am...
Scott P. Duncan (duncan@ctt.bellcore.com OR ...!bellcore!ctt!duncan)
		(Bellcore, 444 Hoes Lane  RRC 1H-210, Piscataway, NJ  08854)
		(201-699-3910 (w)   201-463-3683 (h))