Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!husc6!purdue!decwrl!eda!jim
From: jim@eda.com (Jim Budler)
Newsgroups: comp.misc
Subject: Re: Software Development And Piracy (Spurred By FTL replies)
Message-ID: <415@eda.com>
Date: 22 Dec 88 23:18:12 GMT
References: <555@icus.islp.ny.us> <2363@ddsw1.MCS.COM> <1334@leah.Albany.Edu> <5769@thorin.cs.unc.edu> <1343@leah.Albany.Edu> <245@taniwha.UUCP> <401@eda.com> <1176@bucket.UUCP>
Reply-To: jim@eda.com (Jim Budler)
Organization: EDA Systems,Inc. Santa Clara, CA
Lines: 107

In article <1176@bucket.UUCP> leonard@bucket.UUCP (Leonard Erickson) writes:
| In article <401@eda.com> jim@eda.com (Jim Budler) writes:
| <Wrong! You obviously have little grasp of the concept of property.
| <Intellectual property *is* property. It has *everything* to do
| <with theft. You copy a program, you have stolen.
| 
| [arguments ommitted]
| 
| <You copy a $39 game program and you have deprived various people of
| <their lawful revenue:
| <	1) The publisher, oh lets say $2
| <	2) The retailer, uh, give him $2
| 
| Wrong. Neither the retailer nor the publisher is due *any* money.
| You didn't obtain the program thru them. If I buy a car direct from

I'll give you the retailer, perhaps, although a mail order house is a
retailer. But in a majority of cases the publisher is the *only*
person who can distribute software. He usually has an exclusive
contract with the author, as well as with the duplicating house.
He *is* the manufacturer. Even if you get a copy bundled with
hardware, where the duplication is performed by the hardware manufacturer,
and the publisher had nothing to do with it, the hardware manufacturer
has a contract with the publisher, and therefore, even that piece of
the software came 'through' the publisher.  So how did you get the software
without going through the publisher? 

| the factory, neither the wholesaler nor my local dealer are due any
| money. They didn't provide any service, so they don't get any money.

The factory, in this case is acting as distributor and retailer. So what.
If you are buying from the duplicating house, they are the pirates, but
you might be liable. If you are buying from the author, he may be violating
his contract, and in fact the publisher might consider him a pirate. You
might be liable.

| The author (or the copyright owner) is due some money. But I'd say you
| could reasonably argue that they aren't due any amount beyond the
| normal royalty on the package. On a $39 game, this may only be $1
| *or less*. 

The publisher is usually either the copyright owner, having purchased
the copyright from the author, or commissioned the author. Or the
author retains the copyright, but licenses the exclusive use of the
copyright for some term. Very seldom will a publisher have a non-exclusive
license.

Ok, how did you get this software, bypassing everyone in the normal
legal distribution channels, and pay the author, whom you seem to feel
is the only one due anything, his $1?

| 
| This doesn't make copying any more ethical, but it should point out
| that any claims of loss due to piracy shouldn't be based on the price
| of the program. (A strong case can be made that the publisher can 
| claim the lost *profits*, but not the full retail price!)

Exactly my point.

I used the word revenue, not price. The only way in which I used retail
price was as an example of approximate revenues from the purchase price.
I used $2 for the publisher (meaning the copyright holder or licensee), and $2
for the retailer (meaning the person from whom the consumer legally
obtained his copy). There are often others in between these who get
their share also ( wholesaler, distributer, transportation, storage ),
but these don't always exist as seperate entities. And in fact as you
pointed out, publishers often sell factory direct, so a retailer may
not exist. But I bet you pay the publisher both his profit and the
retailers profit (and everyone elses) in this case. I've seldom found
factory direct software to be cheaper than discount house copies of
the *same* software.

[ totally honest end-user fantasyland deleted ]

| Or they'd find a cheaper package that would still meet their needs.
| (I'm quite happy with Multiplan 3.0 at $200, no way will I buy Lotus
| at $700+!)

No doubt.

| 
| It *is* possible to find legal ways to obtain software cheaply. I 
| obtained an *old* copy of Wordstar that had been bundled with a system
| from someone when he junked the system. I then upgraded this copy
| to the current version for slightly over $100. I couldn't afford the
| full price, but I found a *legal* way to get it cheaper! 
| 

There are hundreds of legal ways to get software cheaper. Discount houses,
used, fire sales, promotions. All of these merely alter the percentage
of the revenues in the chain, or in the case of the used software, the
revenues were already paid when it was new.

[...]

| 
| -- 
| Leonard Erickson		...!tektronix!reed!percival!bucket!leonard

So why are you trying to equate your legal ways of getting software
cheaper than list price with my description of the damage done to
the software providers by pirates?

jim
-- 
Jim Budler   address = uucp: ...!{decwrl,uunet}!eda!jim OR domain: jim@eda.com
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