Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!lll-winken!ncis.llnl.gov!ncis!afit-ab!wbralick
From: wbralick@afit-ab.arpa (William A. Bralick)
Newsgroups: comp.misc
Subject: Re: USSR International Computer Club (was: Information on the ICC)
Message-ID: <824@afit-ab.arpa>
Date: 18 Jan 89 19:01:09 GMT
References: <10127@well.UUCP> <1315@orion.cf.uci.edu> <810@afit-ab.arpa> <10870@umn-cs.CS.UMN.EDU>
Reply-To: wbralick@blackbird.afit.af.mil (William A. Bralick)
Distribution: na
Organization: Air Force Institute of Technology; WPAFB, OH
Lines: 105

In article <10870@umn-cs.CS.UMN.EDU> haque@umn-cs.cs.umn.edu (Samudra E. Haque) writes:
>In article <810@afit-ab.arpa> wbralick@blackbird.afit.af.mil (William A. Bralick) writes:
>>In article <1315@orion.cf.uci.edu> dlawyer@balboa.eng.uci.edu (David Lawyer) writes:
)>>
)
)>>Needless to say, the ICC should become a newsgroup on the net:
)>>comp.icc.
)
)>Needless to say it should _not_ become a newsgroup on the net.  I think
)>there are transcendent issues here even if it could get voted into 
)>existence, for example:
)
)>   (1)  Who is going to pay for processing all the reports of
)>   (2)  Who is going to pay for the net surveillance to ensure 
)>   (3)  Will the newsgroup survive if _all_ corporations with defense
)
)
)why not put it to an alt.??? newsgroup..
)
)These news groups are only carried if the host wishes to accept them..
)

Once again, how do you prevent object and source code from being exported
to the Soviet Union?  This is export-controlled technology.  Anything
that can be done to raise the Soviet's cost of acquiring said technology
is a good thing.  The only exception is that if the government decides 
that the Soviet Union should have certain technology, or free access to
technology in general, then the formation of a group can be done in
accordance with USENET rules.

What I am trying to say is that this is not an issue for the USENET 
community to decide ... this is a foreign policy issue which is made 
by the federal government.  What is the federal policy?  I argue that 
it is embodied in the export restrictions and until these are changed, 
the USENET community does not have the right to vote to include such a 
group.  Check the constitution - the federal government has the authority 
and responsibility to create foreign policy, and those powers not reserved 
to the federal government remain with the states and the people.  That 
means the USENET doesn't get to decide what gets exported to the Soviet 
Union.

)alt.icc, alt.soviet.prgrmrs..
)
)Actually  come to think of it, IEEE now has comp.org.ieee, and 
)do you see anybody needing to monitor that group for security concerns?
)

If it is electronically available to people in countries designated as
export-restricted, then, yes, that is probably a good idea.  It was my 
understanding that currently there is no direct connection to such 
countries.

)comp.org.icc ??
)
)
)If the "other" side wants intelligence about project "Z", why would they
)use such a low signal/noise ratio media such as USENET ? Wouldn't they rather 
)prefer to just turn to say the New York Times or the Air Force Magazine.. 
)may be they even have a subscription to them ?

This is not really a valid argument.  Which behaviors are proscribed 
is a legal (i.e. political) issue and individuals (or groups of them) 
do not have the legal authority to violate these proscriptions.  If 
KGB or GRU agents sit in the States, get access to the system, and 
download everything to which they can get access, then that is the 
price we pay for a free society (or press for that matter).  If you 
think it is a ridiculous distinction, the place to raise that issue 
is with your congressional representative -- not the USENET community.  
We don't have the authority to make that decision.

) Look at how many 
)articles come out every year in technical trade journals. Look at how
)many magazines have library/corporate subscribers. THEN look at what the 
)addresses of those 'libraries' turn out to be. Some of them most surely end
)up at some suitable company/private org/embassy. 
)
)Hell, we even get all the U.S. military rags in full blown color in Bangladesh
)courtesy of the U.S. Embassy... of course the magazine is probably worthless
)to them information wise, but you'd be surprised just how much detail 
)you can pick up about weapons guidance/ nav systems. Given a smart programmer
)you can take a picture in 2-d and after a while spit out a 3-d extrapolated
)version of it.

Of course if they have to spend their resources to write the program that
will spit out a 3-d extrapolation instead of just downloading a freeware 
program that does it, then it raises their cost.  None of this is germane, 
though.  See my points above.

)
) [B-2 stuff deleted]
)
)As we say over there, caveat emptor - or u r SOL.
)

As *they* say over there, "you will sell us the rope that we will hang 
you with."  Instead some folks think we should just give it to them, 
or lend them the money to buy it with... I am not of this opinion.


Regards,
-- 
Will Bralick : wbralick@afit-ab.arpa  |  If we desire to defeat the enemy,
Air Force Institute of Technology,    |  we must proportion our efforts to 
                                      |  his powers of resistance.
with disclaimer;  use disclaimer;     |               - Carl von Clauswitz