Xref: utzoo news.admin:4507 news.sysadmin:2053 news.config:1067 Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!lll-winken!ames!lll-lcc!pyramid!csg From: csg@pyramid.pyramid.com (Carl S. Gutekunst) Newsgroups: news.admin,news.sysadmin,news.config Subject: Re: French and UK sites wanted for EUcon. Message-ID: <55538@pyramid.pyramid.com> Date: 18 Jan 89 20:44:31 GMT References: <96@i2ack.UUCP> <303@dcs.UUCP> Organization: Pyramid Technology Corp., Mountain View, CA Lines: 73 >In article <96@i2ack.UUCP> venta@i2ack.UUCP (Paolo Ventafridda) writes: >>Watch out, mcvax and unido rejects mail to/from i2ack since i didn't >>subscribe EUnet.. In article <303@dcs.UUCP> wnp@dcs.UUCP (Wolf N. Paul) writes: > Does this mean what I think it does? Does the EUnet backbone reject mail > which has a non-subscribing European site anywhere in the path, i.e. > xyz!mcvax!uunet!i2ack? Yes. Any EUNet backbone will eat any mail to/from any European site that is not a member of EUNet. >If the former, then this is a most blatant violation of the USENET spirit >I have come across. Well, let's see. EUNet is organized something like this: kddlab------\ /---i2unix \ / North_america-----uunet-------mcvax-----unido / \ munnari-----/ \---other_Eu_national_backbones In other words, there is a single point of entry for all traffic outside of EUNet, and major hubs in each country. The topology is designed to minimize the largest cost: crossing international boundaries. Members of EUNet pay both fixed membership costs and packet charges. Some sites, particularly in Germany, have decided to reduce costs by setting up direct North American UUCP links. They are still members of EUNet, though; they pay their annual dues, and use EUNet for continental traffic. They just use their own links for USA traffic because the packet charges are lower. What Paolo is doing is different. He is not an EUNet member. He is instead setting up an alternative network in Europe to compete against EUNet. I know the EUNet folks aren't crazy about this, since it stands to make hash of a lot of hard work. but they aren't trying to interfere with him either; and as far as I can tell, Paolo is having a lot of fun doing this. EUnet is, though, 100% within their rights to refuse to pass mail to or from his site, or any other eucon site. And there is more to it than the old, "it's my site to do with as I please" argument. Consider what's happening here. Since i2ack is not connected to EUNet, there is only one way for him to get mail to EUNet hosts: i2ack->pyramid->uunet->mcvax->EUNet_backbone->EUNet_host This is obviously a lot more expensive than a simple hop within the EUNet, and EUNet is picking up most of the costs. You could argue that i2ack doesn't log- ically appear to EUNet to be any different than any American site, and you'd be right. And that was the case Paolo tried to make to EUNet. But i2ack is *not* a North American site. EUNet has made an exception for North America; the membership has decided that traffic with North America is important, and therefore they will pay for it. In other words, EUNet is doing a tremendous favor to all of us folks on this side of the pond, saying that we are so im- portant to them that they are willing to pay for the priviledge. But they are not about to subsidize other Eurpoeans; everyone pays their own fair share. Paolo is following the traditional Usenet battlecry: "If you don't like this network, set up your own!" And he's putting his money where his mouth is. But you can't expect the network he is competing against to subsidize him. At the least, EUNet runs on a shoestring budget themselves. What's this "spirit" stuff any way? Usually it's a euphamism for, "I'm a poor broke site, so I'll let big rich sites foot my bills." And by golly, a lot of us have done that over the years. But note that one reason the "<>" construct was added to pathalias was because of the number of UUNet subscriber sites who were unwilling to accept passthrough mail. When the money is up front and in plain view, people are a lot more careful. And, frankly, a lot more fair. Even if less democratic.