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From: hunt@kevin.CES.CWRU.Edu (Francie Hunt)
Newsgroups: comp.edu
Subject: Re: Writing and eng'ing ed
Message-ID: <416@cwjcc.CWRU.Edu>
Date: 26 Jan 89 16:26:12 GMT
References: <412@cwjcc.CWRU.Edu> <5823@phoenix.Princeton.EDU>
Sender: news@cwjcc.CWRU.Edu
Reply-To: hunt@alpha.ces.cwru.edu (Francie Hunt)
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Organization: Computer Engineering and Science/CWRU
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In article <5823@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> dykimber@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Daniel Yaron Kimberg) writes:
>In article <412@cwjcc.CWRU.Edu> pjd@alpha.ces.cwru.edu (dr. funk) writes:
>>2. I teach the lab course which co-ordinates with the tech writing class.
>>   The students get a "World War III" briefing on day one about the need
>>   for good communication skills. The bottom line is, "Your communications
>>   reflect who you are. If you can't spell and consistently use bad grammar,
>>   you are sloppy, apparently stupid and deserve to be stuck in an entry
>>   level programming/logic design job." Heavy handed? Yes. (I worked in
>>   industry, too, so flames to /dev/null.)
>
>If a teacher
>starts off by essentially insulting the top students (the insult is
>implicit - i think the example sentences you use up there would be taken
>as insulting when directed towards someone with good communications skills),
>I think that this would instantly set an adversarial tone for the class,

But, if you have good communication skills, why should you feel
insulted by this?  All he is saying there is: "This is the way the
world works.  You are judged by how you communicate.  I will give you
the chance to learn how to communicate technically, so that you don't
learn the hard way on your first job.  I expect you to work hard at
this, since you have chosen this as your major field."

>    The other thing that irks me about heavy-handedness in teachers is
>that very often they are wrong.  Not necessarily any more often than
>more personable teachers, but compare "you should probably do it this way,
>since it's more convenient for me to read" with "IN COLLEGE, YOU WOULD
>INSTANTLY BE FAILED FOR THIS, SO I'M FAILING YOU FOR YOUR OWN GOOD."  In
>the former case, no harm done.  In the latter, someone's academic record
>is scarred, they're week is ruined, and they've been educationally traumatized.
             -^^^^^-
              their  (they're = they are)

The problem with a lot of students is that if you don't say it MUST be done
a certain way, they complain if any points are taken off for style
since you didn't specify the exact format.  I try to give students
leeway in their assignments, but it irks me when they turn in sloppy
work and then claim that I shouldn't mark them down because I didn't
say things should be done in such and so format.

>    I don't mean this to be insulting, and obviously this isn't the same
>thing - telling student they should learn how to write well is a fairly
>harmless recommendation, and a good idea in any case.  But WWIII strategies
>may do more harm than good.

A harmless recommendation?  How about a necessary requirement to success!
Students may hate it at the time, since most of their classes don't
require much in the way of communication skills, but many of our students
have returned and thanked us for requiring them to learn to present
their work in an understandable manner.

>The upshot of all this being that I think the World War III style
>is in general a lousy way to teach, and I'm glad that it wasn't the
>prevalent style while I was brought up because if it had been, I would
>probably be in jail or a mental institution right now, or maybe even worse,
>an airport.
>p.p.s. i didn't intend this as a flame against the orginal poster, since
>     for all i know he has a good relationship with his students.  i only
>     meant to criticize heavy-handed WWIII teaching in general.

Prof Drongowski is widely regarded by our students as one of the best
d*mn teachers in our school.  The problem with net.communication is
that you only see the words, you don't get a glimpse of the personality
behind them.  His students know that he is tough, but very fair, and that
he expects them to work for their grades.  Too bad that most universities
don't recognize or reward teaching as the valuable (and necessary)
contribution that it is.

By the way, I teach the design methodology course he mentioned.  I
have a different style, but I also give my students a "This is your
life" speech early in the semester to impress on them the importance of
commitment to working on their projects in the class.  If this is their
chosen field, by golly, they should put their all into it, and not try
to slide by with the minimum amount of work.

Francie Hunt
Assistant Professor, Computer Engineering and Science
Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH 44106
hunt@alpha.ces.cwru.edu