Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!unmvax!gatech!mcdchg!ddsw1!karl From: karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) Newsgroups: comp.mail.uucp Subject: Re: Maps Subverted Summary: Why complain Len, Mark(s) and Admin-PL-Aeten? Message-ID: <2793@ddsw1.MCS.COM> Date: 27 Jan 89 22:41:33 GMT References: <11891@netsys.COM> <454@acheron.UUCP> <3274@cbnews.ATT.COM> <405@mjbtn.MFEE.TN.US> <1622@oid.UUCP> Reply-To: karl@ddsw1.UUCP (Karl Denninger) Distribution: comp Organization: Macro Computer Solutions, Inc., Mundelein, IL Lines: 116 In article <1622@oid.UUCP> root@oid.UUCP (Admin-P.L. Aeten) writes: >Lots of text deletion for brevity..... > >In article <405@mjbtn.MFEE.TN.US> root@mjbtn.MFEE.TN.US (Mark J. Bailey) writes: >>In article <3274@cbnews.ATT.COM>, mark@cbnews.ATT.COM (Mark Horton) writes: >>> From article <11891@netsys.COM>, by len@netsys.COM (Len Rose): >>> > I would like to find out who took the maps and turned them >>> > into a bloody mailing list. >>> >>> When the maps were first put out, it was clearly stated that >>> they were NOT to be used for generating mailing lists. Now >>> some nameless bozo organization has violated the policy. What policy? I've been on the net for 2+ years (admittedly not forever) and have never seen (1) a copyright on the map files or in the README, or (2) ANY statement of the maps being used only for routing -- in fact, it is EXPLICITLY mentioned that the maps are a good means of finding out where a company is located, who to contact, etc. If I send my resume to every computer manufacturer that I can find in the maps, is that misuse of the maps? From the example(s) given in news.announce.newusers as well as the lack of an admonition against doing same, the answer would appear to be "no". Then why complain if some company (an "invented" person by law) does the same in an attempt to market it's products & services (whether they be newspapers or something else)? >>I know it nigh near to impossible, but it would be nice to attempt to find out >>who did it... >> >Yes I also agree this is a foul deed...Perhaps we can turn this into >an opportunity while at the same time fencing out those that greedily >prey on the hard work and openess of the "NET". Huh? Look, let's be realistic. Every commercial entity that connects to Usenet does it because they see a benefit in doing so. Educational institutions do it for many reasons, but firms like Motorola, AT&T and thousands of others do it for one reason only -- it makes economic sense. The benefit may not be economic (directly), but knowledge IS worth something, and that something is valuable enough for a corporation to foot the bill. If your site is corporate (and quite possibly if it isn't as well), you too "prey on the hard work and openness of the Net". Did you donate to Rick Adams for the software of HIS that you use? How about Larry Wall (rn)? Spaf and others for the enormous amount of time they put in doing "nice" things for the net at large? Shall I go on? We all derive a benefit from being here; I haven't seen a (true) vulture yet. I have seen a lot of irate people on the network who are indignant without justification; this is but one prime example. >Why not see if the maps can be copyrighted? Once done then some mech- >anism can be put in place to take advantage of and use the maps to >generate revenue to keep or at least help to fund the enormous costs >of moving news and mail. I am NOT proposing a commercial venture but >at least we don't have to force policing (?) [ we certainly don't have >the time to play "COPS and "Robbers"" ] > >Any further thoughts or discussion? Sure (you asked for this!) First, you can't copyright the maps themselves; the entries are the property of the submitter (and since they are published w/o notice, the entire mess becomes PUBLIC DOMAIN and can be used for any purpose anyone desires). The UUCP Project COULD copyright the entire compilation of the maps -- but this doesn't stop someone from using some of the map entries, only from using (or selling) the entire collection. What mechanism do you propose to "generate revenue", who's gonna administrate and collect it, and why do I get the feeling this is getting awfully close to "commercializing the entire Usenet"... Or are you just intending to force compliance with the "uucp mapping projects" domain registration system (at $x per year, which we already went over in this group and the consensus was that while some people pay, they don't get anything for their money and can receive the same registration at no cost). Lastly, I saw a call for people to submit misleading entries. Sure, you can do this -- IF you want to effectively be "unpublished". If you do take this path, you'll cost a few mass-mailers a few bucks -- but one day when someone really DOES want to get ahold of you or your company to either purchase something or for some other legit reason, they'll be unable to do so. With the privacy of such an act comes the responsibility for the possible unwelcome outcome. What's the beef if you get a few more pieces of paper mail? This isn't EMAIL, the person doing the sending is paying for the privilege of mailing to you, and you can always use the paper to start the winter fires in the fireplace (or simply trash it if you wish). Are you really so naive to believe that manufacturers and publishers don't sell their lists of names -- you PAID for those products -- Usenet is FREE! How about the phone company -- ever get a cold call for insurance or any one of a million "new tenant" things right after moving in a new place (and having a phone installed; note -- I got calls before the landlord had the new number)! Now you complain about someone using your name and address taken from a publically-posted notice -- which you put in place for the EXPLICIT reason of encouraging communication with you and your site. I just don't understand. I for one didn't mind reading "Focus on AIX" (but I wonder what Information Builders thought of the name; >I< was initially confused :-); it was good for a number of laughs. The rest got canned on sight; if I had received some USEFUL information I might have even made use of it! Finally, most companies will take you off their mailing list(s) if you call or write and ask them to do so -- why would they want to waste the postage on you if all you're going to do is trash the paper anyways? -- Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, ddsw1!karl) Data: [+1 312 566-8912], Voice: [+1 312 566-8910] Macro Computer Solutions, Inc. "Quality solutions at a fair price"