Path: utzoo!utgpu!watmath!clyde!mcdchg!ddsw1!karl From: karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) Newsgroups: comp.mail.uucp Subject: Re: Maps Subverted Summary: You don't want mailing lists? Change your "#P" line to "Unpublished" Keywords: short term, long term, database, sabotage, commercialism, bullshit Message-ID: <2844@ddsw1.MCS.COM> Date: 2 Feb 89 19:51:21 GMT References: <405@mjbtn.MFEE.TN.US> <399@lakart.UUCP> <3661@phri.UUCP> <453@avsd.UUCP> Reply-To: karl@ddsw1.UUCP (Karl Denninger) Organization: Macro Computer Solutions, Inc., Mundelein, IL Lines: 150 In article <453@avsd.UUCP> childers@avsd.UUCP (Richard Childers) writes: >roy@phri.UUCP (Roy Smith) writes: > >> I really don't see what the big deal is. I don't remember seeing a >>copyright notice on the maps, so it seems that anybody is free to use them >>for whatever they want. And, it sounds like a damn good way to get a high >>quality list of Unix techie types. > >That's the short-term perspective. > >Now let's look at a long-term perspective. A perspective that includes the >gradual refusal to register machines, for fear that it will be used for an >inappropriate purpose as the computer-mailing-list-vendors of the world >peddle one's name across every doorstep they can find. Like you can refuse to register your operating system, perhaps? Or did you forget that your name is already in many databases and on many mailing lists just by virtue of the fact that you purchased the machine and software that you're using? How many computer companies sell your name when you get on their lists (hint: if it's mail order, ALL OF THEM, and that includes most "large" concerns). >I already give false names to a lot of mailing lists, partially to track who >sells their mailing list to whom, but mostly to fuck with their database. So, >I guess we ought to include the possibility of someone doing something along >those lines, to make the mailing-list peddlers' product a bit less reliable. I see. If you give false addresses when registering a product, so a mailing list based on same is useless, you ALSO lose out on any update notices or other bulletins that you should have gotten. Too bad for you! If you give false (connectivity) information in the maps, you might lose out on your mail, or someone might not be able to find (you/your company) when they need to. Same risk & reward schedule, as far as I can see. What purpose would sending in a false map entry have? Remember, the part of the maps that are useful for mail routing have NO information pertaining to your physical location. That's there simply for the convenience of those people who might want to contact you in that fashion. If you don't like people using your address in the freely-published maps, you don't have to give it out. How about a line like: #P Not given so money-grubbing Capitalists can't find me. in your map entry? It doesn't change the routing information ONE BIT; every site could easily do just this and solve your "problem" without hosing A SINGLE MAP ENTRY. Heck, the physical "plots" would even still work, as you wouldn't be messing with the Lat/long coordinates encoded within.... Those sites which DID do this would be saying to those nasty mailing-list mongers: "Don't waste your 21 cents sending your crap to me, it'll get round-filed without even being read". Of course, when someone REALLY DOES want to find your organization, and tries to use the maps to do so, you lose. That's the price you pay for your "privacy". You can't have it both ways. >Now, these false map entries generate false mappings, and mail starts to get >hosed. Connectivity droops. ( No, that's not a typo. ) The UUCP domain falls >apart at the seams. > >Well, so much for a publically-maintained, reliable database and connectivity. WRONG. See above. Physical addresses have NOTHING to do with routing information, and the only part of the maps that affect connectivity is the routing information. Please look at the subject (the map files) before posting such an obviously-incorrect analysis of the effect that changing your physical, published address to "No one home" would have. The net effect on connectivity from such an act would be ZERO. >Now, while that's a worst-case scenario, there are many possible paths for >things to follow if we allow this one critical first step, the commercializing >of the UUCP map databases, to exist unchallenged. I, for one, don't mind at all that we get some more information in the mail, or a newpaper or two. Others have posted concurring views; I've received several "yep, me too"s in the mail as well. >The people who did this don't care. It's profits to them, they sell the map, >the map sells goods, everyone is happy except the consumer, and since when >has s/he mattered ? How about when the consumer IS happy because he/she found out about some product or service that they really did want to use -- information that would otherwise pass them by. Or is it "I don't want the crap, and I don't want to be bothered." Fine. Fix your OWN entry so the physical address isn't shown. Leave the rest of us who DO want our addresses known to the public ALONE. And quit carping about a situation that is, in the end, your own doing. >Perhaps this is an opportunity to examine the dangers of public databases, >as this isn't the first time a publically maintained database has been open >to sabotage, and, given the facility of the US Government at ignoring common >restrictions on invasion of privacy and the like, it won't be the last. So >it's not all bad. This might help us avoid future efforts at harrassment. Sabotage? Harrassment? Nice words, but you haven't given us any examples of what you would consider "sabotage". Harrassment is not the right term for it either -- unless you consider unsolicited mail harrassment (hint: the post office, the law, and most consumers don't!) >But, yes, a lot of bad - erosive to what we've worked for - things can happen >if this first step is allowed to exist as an acceptable alternative to the >older, more acceptable method of building mailing databases through hard work. Please specify the harm -- the bad -- the erosive -- that can come of this. You've been given the means to block the mailings to YOUR address -- so make use of it if you're hell-bent on doing so. >In many respects, this use of the database without first exposing the idea to >public discussion has all the hallmarks of a person whom knew exactly what >they were doing. It also feels, to me, like stealing from the Usenet. Of course the marketing type(s) that did this knew what they were doing! That's why they get paid to do marketing-type things.. (sheesh) Stealing from Usenet? How can you steal from Usenet? Did the people who made this list steal from me? No, they GAVE TO ME. Gifts! Yes, pretty much useless paper, but nonetheless, GIFTS. BTU value for my fireplace! The law (darn, that again) says I get to keep that which arrives in the mail that I didn't order. So I did -- I perused the contents and discarded that which I felt was worthless. What's the problem? >>Roy Smith, System Administrator >>Public Health Research Institute >>{allegra,philabs,cmcl2,rutgers}!phri!roy -or- phri!roy@uunet.uu.net > >-- richard > * ..{amdahl|decwrl|octopus|pyramid|ucbvax}!avsd.UUCP!childers@tycho * > * AMPEX Corporation - Audio-Visual Systems Division, R & D * I rest my case; this is my second posting on this subject. Everyone who wants to be left out of future money-grubbing attempts by mailing-list hawkers can do so simply by changing the "#P" line in their map entry. 'Nuff said. Can we quit arguing now? -- Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, ddsw1!karl) Data: [+1 312 566-8912], Voice: [+1 312 566-8910] Macro Computer Solutions, Inc. "Quality solutions at a fair price"