Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!ames!vsi1!octopus!avsd!childers
From: childers@avsd.UUCP (Richard Childers)
Newsgroups: comp.mail.uucp
Subject: Re: Maps Subverted
Keywords: short term, long term, database, sabotage, commercialism, bullshit
Message-ID: <465@avsd.UUCP>
Date: 7 Feb 89 21:51:18 GMT
References: <405@mjbtn.MFEE.TN.US> <399@lakart.UUCP> <3661@phri.UUCP> <453@avsd.UUCP> <2844@ddsw1.MCS.COM>
Reply-To: childers@avsd.UUCP (Richard Childers)
Organization: die Edelstahlratte
Lines: 239

karl@ddsw1.UUCP (Karl Denninger) writes:

>In article <453@avsd.UUCP> childers@avsd.UUCP (Richard Childers) writes:

>>... let's look at a long-term perspective. A perspective that includes the
>>gradual refusal to register machines, for fear that it will be used for an
>>inappropriate purpose as the computer-mailing-list-vendors of the world
>>peddle one's name across every doorstep they can find.

>Like you can refuse to register your operating system, perhaps?  Or did you
>forget that your name is already in many databases and on many mailing lists
>just by virtue of the fact that you purchased the machine and software that
>you're using?  How many computer companies sell your name when you get on
>their lists (hint: if it's mail order, ALL OF THEM, and that includes most 
>"large" concerns).

My name isn't on the purchase orders of the machines I'm administering now.
It's on other purchase orders, but hey, if those hypercorps want to continue
mailing me stuff where I don't work any more, that's their problem, not mine.

Certainly, P.O.s represent acceptable methods of acquiring vendor mailing list
data, more reputable than lifting the UUCP map.

>>I already give false names to a lot of mailing lists, partially to track who
>>sells their mailing list to whom, but mostly to fuck with their database. So,
>>I guess we ought to include the possibility of someone doing something along
>>those lines, to make the mailing-list peddlers' product a bit less reliable.

>I see.  If you give false addresses when registering a product, so a mailing
>list based on same is useless, you ALSO lose out on any update notices or 
>other bulletins that you should have gotten.  Too bad for you!

Silly boy !! I didn't say I gave *everyone* false data, only those people whose
mailing lists I *don't* want to be on. I never give false addresses. Just
false names, so I can see whom they *think* lives at location NNN. Subtlety,
not gross deceit. That's not my style.	(-:

>If you give false (connectivity) information in the maps, you might lose out 
>on your mail, or someone might not be able to find (you/your company) when
>they need to.

Yes, this is a problem, isn't it ? Perhaps I could post my map entry with an
individual's name that doesn't exist, so as to screen out those calls which
are coming from a commercially motivated organization ... as opposed to a 
peer administrator, that group of individuals whom created the database under
discussion and for whose convenience it was originally created.

>Same risk & reward schedule, as far as I can see.

I lose nothing if I decide to list myself as simply 'USENET Nerd' in the map.
Sophisticated individuals will ask for the postmaster. Salespeople will ask
for the 'USENET Nerd'. Guess who I'll hang up on ?

>What purpose would sending in a false map entry have?  Remember, the part of 
>the maps that are useful for mail routing have NO information pertaining to 
>your physical location.  That's there simply for the convenience of those 
>people who might want to contact you in that fashion. 

So that's the portion of the map that I'd need to modify, if I were intent.

I didn't say what part of the map would be false. I didn't say I would do it,
either. I was outlining some worst-case possibilities. Aren't you being a bit
quick at attributing intention to casual conversation ?

>If you don't like people using your address in the freely-published maps,
>you don't have to give it out.  How about a line like:
>
>#P	Not given so money-grubbing Capitalists can't find me.
>
>in your map entry?  It doesn't change the routing information ONE BIT; every
>site could easily do just this and solve your "problem" without hosing A
>SINGLE MAP ENTRY.  Heck, the physical "plots" would even still work, as you
>wouldn't be messing with the Lat/long coordinates encoded within....

That sounds fine. It seems like we're thinking about the same thing, after all.

But I'd rather not have to do this *at all*. I shouldn't have to. Nobody should
have to engage in a defensive posture towards predatory commercial interests
in their day-to-day duties as UUCP administrator.

>Those sites which DID do this would be saying to those nasty mailing-list
>mongers: "Don't waste your 21 cents sending your crap to me, it'll get
>round-filed without even being read". 

>Of course, when someone REALLY DOES want to find your organization, and
>tries to use the maps to do so, you lose.  That's the price you pay for
>your "privacy".  You can't have it both ways.

I say that publishing the UUCP maps is inappropriate, if it's to facilitate
profiteering. You seem to feel it's OK, and that the burden is upon me to
make it difficult for them to sell to me. I say I shouldn't have to do such
a thing. My privacy should be assured, it should never come into question.

Private abuse of confidential information is inescapable. But I see no reason
to institutionalize it. Do you ?

I'm sure there are a lot of people with home UUCP machines whom are asking the
exact same question. I don't think I'm alone here.

>Please look at the subject (the map files) before posting such an
>obviously-incorrect analysis of the effect that changing your physical,
>published address to "No one home" would have.  The net effect on
>connectivity from such an act would be ZERO.

<<< flame on >>>

Look, thimbletwit, you're the one who didn't read my posting correctly.

I hypothesized about some of the possible reactions of a diverse user group
to such predatory practices. Including partially or completely forged map
entries. At no time did I suggest I was intent on doing either of these, had
done so in the past - in relation to UUCP - or would in the future.

You have cast me as a perpetrator, instead of a commentator.

Re-read the posting, re-write your response, *then* you can come on all
self-righteous about how you've read the map files and nobody else has.
I know precisely whereof I speak, and if you didn't read the article right
and it failed to accumulate in your aged dendrites, that's your problem.

<<< flame off >>>

>>Now, while that's a worst-case scenario, there are many possible paths for
>>things to follow if we allow this one critical first step, the commercializing
>>of the UUCP map databases, to exist unchallenged.

>I, for one, don't mind at all that we get some more information in the mail,
>or a newpaper or two.  Others have posted concurring views; I've received
>several "yep, me too"s in the mail as well.

Time will tell. I'd like a commercial network like USENET, too, but it won't
be possible without public key encryption, otherwise competitors will be
erasing each others' stuff when it passes through their machines, and what's
to date been a happy, con-competitive, cooperative environment will fall
apart at the seams.

I'm not so dumb as to believe I can force USENET to fit into the Procrustean
bed of a Utopian future reality of infinite electronic interconnectedness.
It might be a piece of the pie, but it's never going to be a backbone.

>>The people who did this don't care. It's profits to them, they sell the map,
>>the map sells goods, everyone is happy except the consumer, and since when
>>has s/he mattered ?

>How about when the consumer IS happy because he/she found out about some
>product or service that they really did want to use -- information that would
>otherwise pass them by.

Nothing stopping them from using conventional channels of advertising. As you
pointed out, you're already on a zillion different mailing lists and databases.
Why do they have to shit in our uupond ?

>Or is it "I don't want the crap, and I don't want to be bothered."  Fine.
>Fix your OWN entry so the physical address isn't shown.  Leave the rest of
>us who DO want our addresses known to the public ALONE.  And quit carping
>about a situation that is, in the end, your own doing.

Oh, brother. I sold the UUCP database to a mailing list company, huh. Is your
thinking always this ... clear ?

>>Perhaps this is an opportunity to examine the dangers of public databases,
>>as this isn't the first time a publically maintained database has been open
>>to sabotage, and, given the facility of the US Government at ignoring common
>>restrictions on invasion of privacy and the like, it won't be the last. So
>>it's not all bad. This might help us avoid future efforts at harrassment.

>Sabotage?  Harrassment?  Nice words, but you haven't given us any examples
>of what you would consider "sabotage".  Harrassment is not the right term
>for it either -- unless you consider unsolicited mail harrassment (hint: the 
>post office, the law, and most consumers don't!)

It has been my observation that whiners always end up citing The Law. Well, I
follow common sense, and it tells me that if I repeatedly addressed mail to
you, you would get angry. That is harrassment. Most people don't need to check
with their lawyer before they feel harrassed.

The current state of the law has nothing, or damned little, to do with the
concepts of right and wrong. Thus, in this discussion, I'm ignoring it as
relevant to the topic at hand. If we can't settle this out of the courts,
then we're not much good as a freely associating cooperatively-based network.

>>But, yes, a lot of bad - erosive to what we've worked for - things can happen
>>if this first step is allowed to exist as an acceptable alternative to the
>>older, more acceptable method of building mailing databases through hard work.

>Please specify the harm -- the bad -- the erosive -- that can come of this.
>You've been given the means to block the mailings to YOUR address -- so make
>use of it if you're hell-bent on doing so.

I did specify the bad, but if you want me to reiterate - I know, hard to pay
attention - I will. Cooperation is a fragile thing, it doesn't stand up well
under abuses such as these. Got it ?

>>In many respects, this use of the database without first exposing the idea to
>>public discussion has all the hallmarks of a person whom knew exactly what
>>they were doing. It also feels, to me, like stealing from the Usenet.

>Of course the marketing type(s) that did this knew what they were doing!
>That's why they get paid to do marketing-type things.. (sheesh)   

Good. We're not marketing types, this isn't a market, and I have faith that
some way will be made available to keep such people away from USENET folk.
We have a handful of 'market' and 'sales' groups ... and they're not for
commercial use. Maybe we should channel this tendency into a misc.commercial
newsgroup, and see what happens. That's what *I* get paid to do.

>Stealing from Usenet?  How can you steal from Usenet?  Did the people who
>made this list steal from me?  No, they GAVE TO ME.  Gifts!  Yes, pretty
>much useless paper, but nonetheless, GIFTS.  BTU value for my fireplace!  The 
>law (darn, that again) says I get to keep that which arrives in the mail that 
>I didn't order.  So I did -- I perused the contents and discarded that which 
>I felt was worthless.

>What's the problem?

I'm already choking my fireplace with crap paper from home junk mail. I'll be
damned if I'll cart home junk mail I get at work.

And fireplaces aren't a solution, anyway, that's just more pollution of some
carcinogenic inks and plastic-embedded paper on the pulp from trees that we
need more to recycle the atmosphere than to perpetuate news about the newest
hardware from Frobozz, Inc. A better solution is required.

>I rest my case; this is my second posting on this subject.  Everyone who
>wants to be left out of future money-grubbing attempts by mailing-list
>hawkers can do so simply by changing the "#P" line in their map entry.

I'd like to hear what people say about a misc.commercial newsgroup before
I go #P'ing all over my map entry.

>Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, ddsw1!karl)

-- richard

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